I put this on another forum last month and it turned into an intelligent discussion of Harley history, how they always survive, etc. and that was on a sport bike forum, so I have a feeling there will be much less "Harleys are junk" on this board. I thought I would post it here, but please keep it civil (let's please avoid the "Sportsters are for women" because I own a Sportster, you guys don't want to hurt my e-feelings). And sorry that if this might be too long to read, you can skim or just hit the last 2 paragraphs, the thread title alone should be enough to provoke a good discussion.

The big talk at Harley is the youth market, and has been for some time. With overseas sales helping to sell its "All-American" image to non-Americans, they keep kicking the larger problem down the road. They keep coming out with their typical nostalgic bikes that are sold to the typical Harley rider, but the typical Harley rider is getting older and with sport bikes being the popular thing, how is Harley to capture the youth market?

A maker of "nostalgic" items has a hard time capturing youthful sentiment, this much is true. Kids like new stuff, hence why many of us chase news of the very latest bikes coming out. Not one of my friends has ever said to me, "Dude, did see that new Iron 883 Harley just came out with?" Now, I am an admitted lover of all bikes, I love cafe racers, sport bikes, supermotos, cruisers, anything with two wheels is cool to me and anyone on two wheels is a potential friend because they understand what it's about. I think bikes like the Street Bob and Cross Bones are pretty cool, but I am not exactly your average 18 year old male. I'm the only guy I know who gets excited about springer seats and a Harley that has the word "head" in its engine name. But at the same time, as much as I like the looks of the Dark Customs, especially the Cross Bones, being 18 I don't exactly have $17,000 sitting in bank account (although donations towards my Cross Bones fund are certainly welcome, I accept paypal).

And I think this is where Harley loses much of its business in the youth market: price. Street Bob under $10K? Mine! I think they have more youthful buyers than they realize, particularly with the Dark Customs and V-Rod, just their bikes are not affordable for these potential buyers (although their acquisition of MV Agusta might help them with the technology to push the V-Rod Muscle into V-Max territory).

I enjoy the rebel image, but not the one associated with just Harleys, the one associated with being on two wheels in general. To me Harleys have a nostalgic character to them that I find cool, but dammit I couldn't even muster half of the cash needed for one of those things new! Best I got was an ironhead Sportster (although I am happy with this bike, it's a blast to ride).

And this brings me to another point: the "Half a Harley" Sportster. Harley owners kill their own fan base by cannibalizing the Sportster owners. The Iron 883 is a sweet looking bike, it actually functions more as a standard than a cruiser and has respectable power and handling, but a very unique feel to it. Yet, I wouldn't dare go to a Harley club meeting on an Evo Sportster or else I would be shunned by the "elites" on the bigger bikes. This whole unfriendly welcome to the bike that is most likely to get new riders is killing Harley faster than its outdated designs. Not everyone wants to buy a brand new Dyna for their first bike, but when they don't they are considered unworthy of being in the Harley club.

My personal opinion is that as their baby boomer slowly fades out of the motorcycle market, their overseas sales and "American bad boy" image that they once had here will keep them alive until they figure out what needs to be done to make more 18-25 year olds to drool on dealership windows. The whole "riding free, sticking it to the man" image works great for their larger bikes, but it kind of makes the V-Rod and Sportster the red-headed stepchildren of the bunch because the basic models lack "image appeal" that draws buyers to Big Twins. Harley needs to use MV Agusta for all they are worth to step up the game with the V-Rod and the Sportster. The V-Rod is humiliated by the V-Max, the Japanese are coming in and beating Harley at the game that built their image (big twin power), all while Harley is out to lunch. The Sportster needs to stop being the "small, good on short trips, almost cute bike" (no offense to other Sportster owners). They need to resurrect the pre-AMF ironhead performance days, it doesn't have to be a fully-faired superbike, but if Harley put it on a diet and developed and oversquare engine like the V-Rod's then it could be a contender in the naked/streetfighter performance bike market. The Nightster and Iron are already very stylish, but a kid that's new to bikes may not understand the "personality" that's in a bike, instead they look at spec sheets to find the best value (I was guilty of trying to buy a spec sheet before I was introduced to ironheads). The Sportster is a great platform, it just needs to lose the beer belly and get back to lifting weights at the gym.

So how does Harley save itself? Does it focus on the Sportster? Does it bring out higher performance models of the Sportster (maybe MV Agusta can help shed some poundage off that frame), run advertising for it, and help get it reaccepted into the Harley community as the performance Harley by giving it a little bit more in the power department? Does it try and once again instill the rebel image into today's youth by running advertising of them being "rebels" by not riding sportbikes like their friends, or do they try and move forward focusing on their blacked-out customs in America and all-American image abroad? What do you guys think, how does Harley save itself from itself?

 

Sorry dude. That's way too deep for me.

 

I read that, saw your avatar, and immediately laughed out loud at the perfect irony!

I was having a crappy day (haven't slept at all the last 2 nights because I have bad insomnia, and work just called me and told me that now they need me to come in tomorrow even though it is my day off) and I needed that little bit of a chuckle, thanks.

 

I just laughed for a good two minutes... man I needed that, its been a crap day!

 

Wow, it took 3 posts to derail this thread!

To get back onto point, I just had an interesting thought. If Harley used MV Agusta to design an aluminum frame for the XR1200, then the V-Rod motor is already only a small bit over the regulations for WSBK road course racing. The engine is an exotic oversquare that is set up for top-end speed and mid-range torque. It is an excellent choice of platform, in my opinion, to have a Harley hot rod V-twin stuffed into an exotic European aluminum racing chassis. Right now the dominating (if not the only) V-twin competitor in WSBK is Ducati. So if Harley came in and was competitive, it would lead to a V-twin manufacturers battle between two of the greatest motorcycle racing companies in history. Many young guys watch motorcycle road racing, win on sunday sell on monday still applies to an extent. The kids want the fastest bike they can get for their money, and obviously they aren't going to pick the bike that came in last place.

Believe it or not, many sportbike guys actually wanted to see the XR1200 get good reviews. Some guys are just waiting for Harley to make a fast bike that can also handle with the Japanese. These guys are not particularly brand loyal, they go for the most bike they can get for their money. On a sportbike forum I visit, there is a lot of talk about the V-Rod motor. A lot of these guys love the powerband and the sound, they say the motor is like an addiction. Their only gripe is that the V-Rod couldn't hold a candle to modern sportbikes in the handling department, and that is enough for them to search elsewhere for a motorcycle, dreaming of the day Harley puts that motor into something competitive in the sportbike market. If a tuned up V-Rod motor with a slight displacement decrease got into an aluminum frame from MV Agusta and Harley went racing with it, they would have a buying frenzy on their hands if they did it right.

Should Harley enter into a manufacturer V-twin battle with Ducati at the world level of road racing, I smell astronomical publicity for Harley, along with exposure to a market segment that would normally never consider a Harley-Davidson because they are "slow, heavy, and for old people" as some in the sportbike crowd might say. Then, if Harley made a street replica of the racing XR1200, the dealers would not likely be able to stock them before they went out the door. A lot of sportbikers are rooting for Harley, they WANT to buy a Harley but Harley is just not making a motorcycle for them at this time.

 

I'll stick my neck out there on this one and agree with you on all points.
Only I think the xr1200 is just butt-ugly. On the other hand I don't think the moco is gonna build anything that will directly compete with buell. Harley has way to much money tied up with them to jeopordize buell sales..

 

Enzo makes some good points. The average Harley owner is 40-something, and we're not getting any younger. The MoCo will need to become competitive in the younger demographic to stay viable in the long run. There are still a lot of older riders who are perfectly willing to plunk down over $30K for a Screaming Eagle bagger, but somebody in their 20s will take that $30K (IF they have that much to spend) and buy a Japanese sport bike AND a small car.

I think the XR1200 is a good start. It may well be fugly to a traditional Harley guy but it's a lot more in line with what younger guys are riding. It even got the thumbs-up in a head-to-head against a Ducati in a recent comparo (Cycle World, I think). And, yes, the Buell issue is there. Harley doesn't want to compromise Buell sales. But I've heard a lot of sport-bike people tell me that they're kind of an "exclusive club" which turns a lot of people off even if the bike is decent.

The V-Rod is a bit of a mutant but does get some respect in performance-rider circles. If dropping that motor into another design would increase sales, I'm all for it.

We all want to see Harley stay viable, and for it to do that, it may need to change its business model. As long as the big bikes keep selling, then keep making 'em, by all means. However, I think they could sell a sport-tourer in the vein of the Ducati ST series...maybe they ought to think about it!

 

I don't think it would compete with Buell at all. We are talking race replica liter bikes, not liter streetfighters (different in power, handling, braking, and VERY different in ergonomics on the street). While Buell makes a fine bike, their 1125cc twin is much more street-mannered than the 1198cc twin that the Ducati 1198 has inside. The 1198R is made with one thing in mind: the track. Ducati couldn't care less how the 1198 rides on the street, because it is fast and people will pay the $22,000 price tag regardless, Ducati 1198 buyers want *****-to-the-wall performance and nothing else. The reason they will pay so much for the bike is simple: it wins races. Which is what I said in my last post, if Harley goes into WSBK and starts beating up on Ducati there will be rich young buyers out the door ready to pay whatever is necessary to have that bike, because it wins.

Buell makes a very nice performer in the naked/streetfighter market. Buells are as fast a motorcycle as you or I would likely ever want, but for some people that is just not enough, and those people are willing to pay more than the MSRP on a Tri Glide to get the bike they want. Buell's real competition comes from bikes such as the Triumph Speed Triple, Kawasaki Z1000, Yamaha FZ1, and Ducati Monster 1100. While fine performers in every aspect and in reality no sane human being could ever use their full potential on the street. The 1125R simply lacks the displacement (14hp less), suspension, brakes, and riding position to be able to keep up with an 1198.

If we are going to talk ugly in the MoCo's lineup, I think whoever put half of an alien flying saucer on the Buell 1125R should be fired. I think that is the ugliest sportbike headlight on the market right now. I could live with the XR1200, it's not exuberantly stylish like other Harleys (not supposed to be), but it's also not ugly. If it was as fast as a Ducati 1098R around the track, I know a lot interested in that level of performance is willing to look past a bike being ugly because they are getting a bike that is the top of the food chain.

 

There's no telling what may be going on at Buells' "skunkworks".Good work takes time and a lot of r+d.I'd love to see them come up with a good RR.Sporties are a pretty darn good bike and getting better,I look at them as a stepping stone for a lot of people,(not trying to put any-one down)for those of us that will eventually move into a cruiser type of bike,like myself,from an fxstc to a Roadking.

 

Some of us look at this "beginner bike" image that Harley has tagged onto the Sportster and just shake our heads. When you ride the ironhead and see what the Sportster used to be, it's almost disappointing what it has become. The XR1200 was the Sportster that Harley had not made for 23 years (introduction of the Evo), but then it sucked.

Nothing wrong with an Evo in the Custom and Low bikes. They sell and people buy them to start out on, don't need to mess with that formula if it is still making money. But, to me the Nightster is like buying a brand new Corvette with the Ecotec 200hp 4-cylinder in it. Looks awesome, but the motor is an economical thing and nothing really spectacular about it. The Revolution makes 125hp, is loaded with technology, and if they threw it in the Nightster, that bike weighs 100lbs less than the V-Rod! THAT is what the Sportster used to be all about: smaller motor, more technology, more power, less weight. I don't need some WSBK-winning resurrection of the XR1200 with an almighty Ducati-beating V-twin (although it would be nice). I would just like to be able to be excited about the motor in the Sportsters, and a smaller displacement Revolution in the Nightster or Iron would do just that!

Maybe I'm just being a purist, but in all honesty, as long as those Sportsters have that Evo motor I have no real interest in purchasing one. There's just nothing exciting about the Evo. When they came out with the new Camaro SS, there were waiting lists, dealer markups, and a LOT of hype over the LS3 motor. Why? Because it was exciting, it was something that people looked at and said "OMG I SO WANT THAT CAR!" The Iron and Nightster can pull that off because of their styling, but with a boring motor the bike is just a very sexy paperweight to me.