Emergency stops
#71
12-12-2007, 08:37 PM
RE: Emergency stops
ORIGINAL: MNPGRider
You can re-apply the rear brake if your bike is going straight. If you are in a turn, then keep the brake locked up to avoid a high-side. I don't think there's much chance of a high-side when the bike is headed straight ahead.
The forces generated are really quite high. I had the perfect example to show one of my MSF classes, when we were doing the excerside for controlling rear wheel skids. A student came into the braking chute at about the max 20 mph, and locked up the rear brake as instructed, and the rear end "wagged" to the rightabout six inches, even though he had kept the front wheel straight and did everything else correct. He reacted to the skid, however, and released the brake, and the rear end literally jumped sideways as the forces tried to pull the tires back into alignment. He was able to kind of skip along to a stop without tipping over, but the bike was no longer vertical. Keep in mind this was on only lightweight 125 cc bike.
As he was the first student, the only skid mark we had on the pavement was his, and I was able to show the class the results of his releasing the brake. Visualize about 10 feet of a nearly straight skid mark, andat the end of it a near right angle skid markto the left. That was the mark the rear tire made as the back end violently went to the left to try and realign with the front tire.
A skid at highway speed, or even street speed, would have much more force.
One of the things I liked to show my classes, was to skid and maintain it, but at about half way to a stop, turn my head one way or the other. The rear of the bike would immediately go the other direction into a slide. Keeping your eyes forward and level with the horizon maintains inner ear balance, which controls your whole body's balance. You can do the same excercise on a bicycle like we used to do as kids....ride to beat hell and hit the rear coaster brake on gravel.
You can re-apply the rear brake if your bike is going straight. If you are in a turn, then keep the brake locked up to avoid a high-side. I don't think there's much chance of a high-side when the bike is headed straight ahead.
The forces generated are really quite high. I had the perfect example to show one of my MSF classes, when we were doing the excerside for controlling rear wheel skids. A student came into the braking chute at about the max 20 mph, and locked up the rear brake as instructed, and the rear end "wagged" to the rightabout six inches, even though he had kept the front wheel straight and did everything else correct. He reacted to the skid, however, and released the brake, and the rear end literally jumped sideways as the forces tried to pull the tires back into alignment. He was able to kind of skip along to a stop without tipping over, but the bike was no longer vertical. Keep in mind this was on only lightweight 125 cc bike.
As he was the first student, the only skid mark we had on the pavement was his, and I was able to show the class the results of his releasing the brake. Visualize about 10 feet of a nearly straight skid mark, andat the end of it a near right angle skid markto the left. That was the mark the rear tire made as the back end violently went to the left to try and realign with the front tire.
A skid at highway speed, or even street speed, would have much more force.
One of the things I liked to show my classes, was to skid and maintain it, but at about half way to a stop, turn my head one way or the other. The rear of the bike would immediately go the other direction into a slide. Keeping your eyes forward and level with the horizon maintains inner ear balance, which controls your whole body's balance. You can do the same excercise on a bicycle like we used to do as kids....ride to beat hell and hit the rear coaster brake on gravel.
Excellent point again.
Once again for some ridersdoing the above maynot instinctive, so they have to learn to do it.
This is why riders with ABS bikes still need to practice the basics.
#72
12-12-2007, 09:07 PM
RE: Emergency stops
This has been one of the most informative posts I've read in a long long time. thank you to those who have posted such informative information on this topic. I think it would be highly beneficial to have a specific HDF forum dedicated to the topic of "Safety".Posts aboutriding defensively,evasive riding, situational riding, reactions, leaving an out, crash experiences and lessons learned, cause and effect, bike dynamics, safety gear, state of mind riding,and anything else that may be contributed. It's unfortunate that in the majority of times that we discuss these topics is when a fellow rider has gone down or had a near miss, feeling compelled to share with the members of HDF. Maybe, like practicing our physical abilities, we should be discussing our mental abilities more often as well.
I have been riding for about 8 years, and have been very lucky in my experiences. I ride daily and feel that my experience/knowledge/reaction level is "adequate". It should not be adequate, it should be "excellent". I need to practice these above mentioned principles much more often. Riding my motorcycle is euphoric, in the sense that it is extremely easy to clearmy mind, release the tension, forget about all the daily crap, and just ride. But that can leave you vulnerable. It really does come back to instinct, and muscle trainingforyour reactions to be highlyeffective.We, as riders, have a tendency to easily get caught up in the excitement of enhancing our bikes with all the great perf upgrades, chrome bolt-ons, custom mods and such. We tend to forget the importance of the personal physical and mental "upgrades" that we should also be making to our riding ability . I will admit that I am certainly guilty of this as well.
I think my wife is getting me the Ride Like a Pro IV video for xmas and I can't wait to watch it. I also want to pick up the previous three videos.
Sorry if I got off topic, just wanted to express how interesting and informative this post has been.
HuronBob...my sympathies for your loss. Like mentioned, thanks to you for sharing your tragic experience with us in hopes that we may learn from it.
I have been riding for about 8 years, and have been very lucky in my experiences. I ride daily and feel that my experience/knowledge/reaction level is "adequate". It should not be adequate, it should be "excellent". I need to practice these above mentioned principles much more often. Riding my motorcycle is euphoric, in the sense that it is extremely easy to clearmy mind, release the tension, forget about all the daily crap, and just ride. But that can leave you vulnerable. It really does come back to instinct, and muscle trainingforyour reactions to be highlyeffective.We, as riders, have a tendency to easily get caught up in the excitement of enhancing our bikes with all the great perf upgrades, chrome bolt-ons, custom mods and such. We tend to forget the importance of the personal physical and mental "upgrades" that we should also be making to our riding ability . I will admit that I am certainly guilty of this as well.
I think my wife is getting me the Ride Like a Pro IV video for xmas and I can't wait to watch it. I also want to pick up the previous three videos.
Sorry if I got off topic, just wanted to express how interesting and informative this post has been.
HuronBob...my sympathies for your loss. Like mentioned, thanks to you for sharing your tragic experience with us in hopes that we may learn from it.
#73
12-12-2007, 09:28 PM
RE: Emergency stops
ORIGINAL: mvinc01
This has been one of the most informative posts I've read in a long long time. thank you to those who have posted such informative information on this topic. I think it would be highly beneficial to have a specific HDF forum dedicated to the topic of "Safety".Posts aboutriding defensively,evasive riding, situational riding, reactions, leaving an out, crash experiences and lessons learned, cause and effect, bike dynamics, safety gear, state of mind riding,and anything else that may be contributed. It's unfortunate that in the majority of times that we discuss these topics is when a fellow rider has gone down or had a near miss, feeling compelled to share with the members of HDF. Maybe, like practicing our physical abilities, we should be discussing our mental abilities more often as well.
This has been one of the most informative posts I've read in a long long time. thank you to those who have posted such informative information on this topic. I think it would be highly beneficial to have a specific HDF forum dedicated to the topic of "Safety".Posts aboutriding defensively,evasive riding, situational riding, reactions, leaving an out, crash experiences and lessons learned, cause and effect, bike dynamics, safety gear, state of mind riding,and anything else that may be contributed. It's unfortunate that in the majority of times that we discuss these topics is when a fellow rider has gone down or had a near miss, feeling compelled to share with the members of HDF. Maybe, like practicing our physical abilities, we should be discussing our mental abilities more often as well.
- because of THIS THREAD , have been religiously
concentrating on bringing the rear brake into play
when I brake (used to go with the front brake only).
- had to do an emergency brake the other day when
a car in front of me suddenly decided to turn off the
road (no signal , etc) .... brought both front and rear
brakes in and the stop was very stable and surefooted,
much better than just a front brake thing.
- cheers and thanks to the posters above for the
good advice/guidance.
.
#74
12-12-2007, 09:43 PM
RE: Emergency stops
Mn was the first state, I believe, that licensed riders who passed the MSF course, back around 1994. As instructors, we had to be "observed" by the state examiner, so we had ample opportunity to visit with them. Our head examiner told me that the number one reason riders failed the state test was in the normal stop. They were told to go through the braking chute, and stop with the front tire between the last two cones. Often, the riders would focus on the cones (looking down at them), and they'd lose their balance and tip right at the point of stopping, and fail the test.
One of the MSF sayings is "Look down, go down. Look up, stay up!"
If you'd like to experience the relationship between your eyes and your balance, fill a coffee cup and carry it on a saucer. Stare at the cup, and you'll slop coffee all over as you walk. Look over across the top of the cup to the other side of the room, and you'll be able to carry the cup without spilling.
Mn also won some awards for our MSF advertising. This is my favorite poster (the one in the center):
[IMG]local://upfiles/38853/ADD4AA6497EA45C9B1F3241C036BDD1B.jpg[/IMG]
One of the MSF sayings is "Look down, go down. Look up, stay up!"
If you'd like to experience the relationship between your eyes and your balance, fill a coffee cup and carry it on a saucer. Stare at the cup, and you'll slop coffee all over as you walk. Look over across the top of the cup to the other side of the room, and you'll be able to carry the cup without spilling.
Mn also won some awards for our MSF advertising. This is my favorite poster (the one in the center):
[IMG]local://upfiles/38853/ADD4AA6497EA45C9B1F3241C036BDD1B.jpg[/IMG]
#75
12-12-2007, 10:41 PM
RE: Emergency stops
ORIGINAL: MNPGRider
You can re-apply the rear brake if your bike is going straight. If you are in a turn, then keep the brake locked up to avoid a high-side. I don't think there's much chance of a high-side when the bike is headed straight ahead.
The forces generated are really quite high. I had the perfect example to show one of my MSF classes, when we were doing the excerside for controlling rear wheel skids. A student came into the braking chute at about the max 20 mph, and locked up the rear brake as instructed, and the rear end "wagged" to the rightabout six inches, even though he had kept the front wheel straight and did everything else correct. He reacted to the skid, however, and released the brake, and the rear end literally jumped sideways as the forces tried to pull the tires back into alignment. He was able to kind of skip along to a stop without tipping over, but the bike was no longer vertical. Keep in mind this was on only lightweight 125 cc bike.
As he was the first student, the only skid mark we had on the pavement was his, and I was able to show the class the results of his releasing the brake. Visualize about 10 feet of a nearly straight skid mark, andat the end of it a near right angle skid markto the left. That was the mark the rear tire made as the back end violently went to the left to try and realign with the front tire.
A skid at highway speed, or even street speed, would have much more force.
One of the things I liked to show my classes, was to skid and maintain it, but at about half way to a stop, turn my head one way or the other. The rear of the bike would immediately go the other direction into a slide. Keeping your eyes forward and level with the horizon maintains inner ear balance, which controls your whole body's balance. You can do the same excercise on a bicycle like we used to do as kids....ride to beat hell and hit the rear coaster brake on gravel.
You can re-apply the rear brake if your bike is going straight. If you are in a turn, then keep the brake locked up to avoid a high-side. I don't think there's much chance of a high-side when the bike is headed straight ahead.
The forces generated are really quite high. I had the perfect example to show one of my MSF classes, when we were doing the excerside for controlling rear wheel skids. A student came into the braking chute at about the max 20 mph, and locked up the rear brake as instructed, and the rear end "wagged" to the rightabout six inches, even though he had kept the front wheel straight and did everything else correct. He reacted to the skid, however, and released the brake, and the rear end literally jumped sideways as the forces tried to pull the tires back into alignment. He was able to kind of skip along to a stop without tipping over, but the bike was no longer vertical. Keep in mind this was on only lightweight 125 cc bike.
As he was the first student, the only skid mark we had on the pavement was his, and I was able to show the class the results of his releasing the brake. Visualize about 10 feet of a nearly straight skid mark, andat the end of it a near right angle skid markto the left. That was the mark the rear tire made as the back end violently went to the left to try and realign with the front tire.
A skid at highway speed, or even street speed, would have much more force.
One of the things I liked to show my classes, was to skid and maintain it, but at about half way to a stop, turn my head one way or the other. The rear of the bike would immediately go the other direction into a slide. Keeping your eyes forward and level with the horizon maintains inner ear balance, which controls your whole body's balance. You can do the same excercise on a bicycle like we used to do as kids....ride to beat hell and hit the rear coaster brake on gravel.
In short, you're probably just much better off just holding the rear brake in a skid and concentrate on the front brake and handling the bike to slow down for the pending crash or obstacle in front of you and just leave the rear brake locked up.
#76
12-12-2007, 10:54 PM
RE: Emergency stops
ORIGINAL: mvinc01
This has been one of the most informative posts I've read in a long long time. thank you to those who have posted such informative information on this topic. I think it would be highly beneficial to have a specific HDF forum dedicated to the topic of "Safety".Posts aboutriding defensively,evasive riding, situational riding, reactions, leaving an out, crash experiences and lessons learned, cause and effect, bike dynamics, safety gear, state of mind riding,and anything else that may be contributed. It's unfortunate that in the majority of times that we discuss these topics is when a fellow rider has gone down or had a near miss, feeling compelled to share with the members of HDF. Maybe, like practicing our physical abilities, we should be discussing our mental abilities more often as well.
I have been riding for about 8 years, and have been very lucky in my experiences. I ride daily and feel that my experience/knowledge/reaction level is "adequate". It should not be adequate, it should be "excellent". I need to practice these above mentioned principles much more often. Riding my motorcycle is euphoric, in the sense that it is extremely easy to clearmy mind, release the tension, forget about all the daily crap, and just ride. But that can leave you vulnerable. It really does come back to instinct, and muscle trainingforyour reactions to be highlyeffective.We, as riders, have a tendency to easily get caught up in the excitement of enhancing our bikes with all the great perf upgrades, chrome bolt-ons, custom mods and such. We tend to forget the importance of the personal physical and mental "upgrades" that we should also be making to our riding ability . I will admit that I am certainly guilty of this as well.
I think my wife is getting me the Ride Like a Pro IV video for xmas and I can't wait to watch it. I also want to pick up the previous three videos.
Sorry if I got off topic, just wanted to express how interesting and informative this post has been.
HuronBob...my sympathies for your loss. Like mentioned, thanks to you for sharing your tragic experience with us in hopes that we may learn from it.
This has been one of the most informative posts I've read in a long long time. thank you to those who have posted such informative information on this topic. I think it would be highly beneficial to have a specific HDF forum dedicated to the topic of "Safety".Posts aboutriding defensively,evasive riding, situational riding, reactions, leaving an out, crash experiences and lessons learned, cause and effect, bike dynamics, safety gear, state of mind riding,and anything else that may be contributed. It's unfortunate that in the majority of times that we discuss these topics is when a fellow rider has gone down or had a near miss, feeling compelled to share with the members of HDF. Maybe, like practicing our physical abilities, we should be discussing our mental abilities more often as well.
I have been riding for about 8 years, and have been very lucky in my experiences. I ride daily and feel that my experience/knowledge/reaction level is "adequate". It should not be adequate, it should be "excellent". I need to practice these above mentioned principles much more often. Riding my motorcycle is euphoric, in the sense that it is extremely easy to clearmy mind, release the tension, forget about all the daily crap, and just ride. But that can leave you vulnerable. It really does come back to instinct, and muscle trainingforyour reactions to be highlyeffective.We, as riders, have a tendency to easily get caught up in the excitement of enhancing our bikes with all the great perf upgrades, chrome bolt-ons, custom mods and such. We tend to forget the importance of the personal physical and mental "upgrades" that we should also be making to our riding ability . I will admit that I am certainly guilty of this as well.
I think my wife is getting me the Ride Like a Pro IV video for xmas and I can't wait to watch it. I also want to pick up the previous three videos.
Sorry if I got off topic, just wanted to express how interesting and informative this post has been.
HuronBob...my sympathies for your loss. Like mentioned, thanks to you for sharing your tragic experience with us in hopes that we may learn from it.
#77
12-12-2007, 11:02 PM
RE: Emergency stops
ORIGINAL: Paniolo
Well said. It never ceases to amaze me that riders think nothing of dropping tens of thousands of dollars on a motorcycle, thousands more on performance and tuning, thousands more on chrome and paint, and then some more on leathers, helmets boots and clothing. But suggest that they considertaking a riding course to improve their own abilities, a lot of them are quick to answer "I already know how to ride". Once I hear that response, I know the window to learning is closed.
Well said. It never ceases to amaze me that riders think nothing of dropping tens of thousands of dollars on a motorcycle, thousands more on performance and tuning, thousands more on chrome and paint, and then some more on leathers, helmets boots and clothing. But suggest that they considertaking a riding course to improve their own abilities, a lot of them are quick to answer "I already know how to ride". Once I hear that response, I know the window to learning is closed.
Thanks for all of the info you share on the forum!
Is there any chance you might do a couple of your classes on the road and come up to the Central Valley? We could probably fill a class or two with advance notice.
#78
12-12-2007, 11:06 PM
Cruiser
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Cedar Park, TX
Posts: 238
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Emergency stops
Hell, I am looking forward to taking the advanced riders course this spring. I retook the beginners just after getting my Ultra just to knock off some of the rust, it had been a while since I rode. I learn something new everytime I go through these courses. In doing what pilots call hanger talk, with your ridning buddies it is hard to distinguish fact and fiction. With instruction you get the straight stuff and chances to practice the skills that you may not use very often but are darn handy when you need them. The ride like a pro video will be in my Christmas stocking and I am looking forward to viewing that and applying what I learn into my everyday rides. In flying they say the best pilots are always learning. The same could and should be said about riding and riders. When you stop trying to learn and better yourself you are an accident waitingfor the right chain of events. With knowledge you see where to brake the chain so the accident doesn't happen.
#79
12-12-2007, 11:11 PM
RE: Emergency stops
Mn always has a rash of cycle accidents in the spring, after the winter haitus. Not only are the car drivers not used to seeing us on the road, but the riders have the winter rust. It is amazing how fast we get out of practice.
#80
12-13-2007, 05:04 AM
Road Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location:
Posts: 1,437
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Emergency stops
I've been driving cars for almost 20 years, and started as a complete ignorant with an underpowered Fiat Uno who was scared shitless of driving on a highway up to the current Lancer Evo IX. I've been several times at Monza speedway (where I beat a car with 100 hp more than the one I was driving
).
I've been always driving with my mind set on constant improvement. Perfection is a path, not a destination. The moment you think you are good, you stop learning and improving yourself. I'm trying to do the same with my bike, and this thread has been full of precious info.
Having somebody share their experience is priceless.
I'd just like to know some opinions on something that happened to me some days ago, because all went well, but can't say actually why. I obviously did something right, but I can't tell what...
Recently, while taking one of my first riding lessons, I was in a long, fast bend. I saw there was a longitudinal depression in the middle of the road, where two strips of asphalt joined not very smoothly along the axis of the road. It was also wet. I saw I was going right on the edge of it and knew my wheel would skid into it badly. I also saw there was nothing I could do unless I did something sudden and jerky. I've learned long time ago that "smooth" is the key when driving, and intuition told me that this is even more so while riding. So I just tried to run into it as smoothlty as I could. I felt the rear wheel skid sideways into it, and then I did something like straightening a bit, not sure, and I don't know how, out it went again, with just a slight wobble. All my instructor could see was that I had some problem and the bike wobbled (so I guess the wobble wasn't so "slight", if he could see it in his mirror from 100 feet away) Didn't touch the brakes, nor did anything with the handlebars. Just felt it with my ****, tried to keep my mind cool, did something with my body, and got out clean. From what I've read here, I guess that what really helped me was the fact that, instead of focusing on the goddamned crease, I kept my head up and my eyes fixed on the car I was following, and my body did the rest by itself.
PS: I've noticed that no matter how good you are in something, be it driving, computer programming, forging iron, shooting or whatever, there's always something to learn in the "for beginners" section
).I've been always driving with my mind set on constant improvement. Perfection is a path, not a destination. The moment you think you are good, you stop learning and improving yourself. I'm trying to do the same with my bike, and this thread has been full of precious info.
Having somebody share their experience is priceless.
I'd just like to know some opinions on something that happened to me some days ago, because all went well, but can't say actually why. I obviously did something right, but I can't tell what...
Recently, while taking one of my first riding lessons, I was in a long, fast bend. I saw there was a longitudinal depression in the middle of the road, where two strips of asphalt joined not very smoothly along the axis of the road. It was also wet. I saw I was going right on the edge of it and knew my wheel would skid into it badly. I also saw there was nothing I could do unless I did something sudden and jerky. I've learned long time ago that "smooth" is the key when driving, and intuition told me that this is even more so while riding. So I just tried to run into it as smoothlty as I could. I felt the rear wheel skid sideways into it, and then I did something like straightening a bit, not sure, and I don't know how, out it went again, with just a slight wobble. All my instructor could see was that I had some problem and the bike wobbled (so I guess the wobble wasn't so "slight", if he could see it in his mirror from 100 feet away) Didn't touch the brakes, nor did anything with the handlebars. Just felt it with my ****, tried to keep my mind cool, did something with my body, and got out clean. From what I've read here, I guess that what really helped me was the fact that, instead of focusing on the goddamned crease, I kept my head up and my eyes fixed on the car I was following, and my body did the rest by itself.
PS: I've noticed that no matter how good you are in something, be it driving, computer programming, forging iron, shooting or whatever, there's always something to learn in the "for beginners" section