Emergency stops
#31
12-07-2007, 06:46 PM
RE: Emergency stops
ORIGINAL: redsled
Nine out of ten times, if you have to brake hard enough to lock something up it means *you* screwed up. Nine out of ten times (actually, it's more like 99 out of 100). There are times when hard braking is required (can't think of any just now). A deer jumps out in front of you, you say? And how fast were you going? Did the deer get parachuted in from some foreign location? Or were there deer there all the time, and it was getting dark out? You need to know what might get you, and adjust your ride accordingly - even if you can't see anything at the moment. If you're not sure, then you slow down until you are.
And it's a good idea to practice braking hard using your front brake. Done properly, it is difficult to lock up a HD front brake. And it's impossible to loop the bike over the front wheel - ain't going to happen.
Having said all that - I just locked up my rear brake two days ago, and nearly dumped the bike. Why? Came flying into a parking lot, and was just starting to turn toward the group I was meeting when a curb jumped right into my path, and made me lock up the back. Scared the crap out of me. [sm=bangbang.gif] Actually, it was in shadows, I was looking where I wanted to go, not where I was going, and I was going too fast. In other words, I screwed up. And I got lucky.
Nine out of ten times, if you have to brake hard enough to lock something up it means *you* screwed up. Nine out of ten times (actually, it's more like 99 out of 100). There are times when hard braking is required (can't think of any just now). A deer jumps out in front of you, you say? And how fast were you going? Did the deer get parachuted in from some foreign location? Or were there deer there all the time, and it was getting dark out? You need to know what might get you, and adjust your ride accordingly - even if you can't see anything at the moment. If you're not sure, then you slow down until you are.
And it's a good idea to practice braking hard using your front brake. Done properly, it is difficult to lock up a HD front brake. And it's impossible to loop the bike over the front wheel - ain't going to happen.
Having said all that - I just locked up my rear brake two days ago, and nearly dumped the bike. Why? Came flying into a parking lot, and was just starting to turn toward the group I was meeting when a curb jumped right into my path, and made me lock up the back. Scared the crap out of me. [sm=bangbang.gif] Actually, it was in shadows, I was looking where I wanted to go, not where I was going, and I was going too fast. In other words, I screwed up. And I got lucky.
Somehow, for some folks, slowing down is always one of the last things that come to mind.
Mark
#32
12-07-2007, 07:38 PM
RE: Emergency stops
ORIGINAL: tbrown2
So is it better to t-bone acage that has stopped in the middle of the intersection in front of you or lay it down and take the slide? This is saying you know that you don't have the distance to come to a complete stop before you get to the vehicle in the intersection. Particularly if you are 2 up and know the passenger will do a flying Whalenda impersonation if you t-bone the cage.
So is it better to t-bone acage that has stopped in the middle of the intersection in front of you or lay it down and take the slide? This is saying you know that you don't have the distance to come to a complete stop before you get to the vehicle in the intersection. Particularly if you are 2 up and know the passenger will do a flying Whalenda impersonation if you t-bone the cage.
#33
12-08-2007, 08:18 AM
Road Warrior
RE: Emergency stops
No! Why make yourself slide? The BEST way to avoid this car(No where to swerve?) is to STAY upright and get stopped using BOTH brakes.Also if you lay your bike down it is your fault according to the law and once the metal hits the road what's stopping you?You should keep the bike vertical and apply BOTH brakes more than likely the front won't lock up(assuming dry concrete or asphalt)the forward weight of the biketrasnfers the weight to the front tire and less on the back(hence the tendency of the rear to lock up)!
ORIGINAL: tbrown2
So is it better to t-bone acage that has stopped in the middle of the intersection in front of you or lay it down and take the slide? This is saying you know that you don't have the distance to come to a complete stop before you get to the vehicle in the intersection. Particularly if you are 2 up and know the passenger will do a flying Whalenda impersonation if you t-bone the cage.
So is it better to t-bone acage that has stopped in the middle of the intersection in front of you or lay it down and take the slide? This is saying you know that you don't have the distance to come to a complete stop before you get to the vehicle in the intersection. Particularly if you are 2 up and know the passenger will do a flying Whalenda impersonation if you t-bone the cage.
#34
12-08-2007, 09:32 AM
Outstanding HDF Member
RE: Emergency stops
Excellent posts from Paniolo, great information to use and I agree with the poster who said, "adjust your riding speed to your conditions" Woman pulled out of a parking lot and hit me, driving me into another car head first. I didn't see her nor her me becuase I was a little too close to the truck in front of me. After a herniated disk, loss of hearing and not riding for 3 months, youcan bet your *** if I'm behind a car now, I never ride their bumper or follow too closely. When I approach a parking lot where there is a car waiting to exit I slowe slightly and cover my brakes, ready to use them immediately. I also SEE (using the MSF acronym) see an esacape, evade the problem and escape an accident. I realize those aren't the proper words for the acronym but it all comes down to driving defensively and as if we are invisible and therefore avoiding many opportunities to have to brake hard.
My accident totallly changed my riding style or rather riding awareness. Trust me, it's much better to ride safely on the bike than to ride fast in an ambulance !!!
Ride safe y'all
Bubba
My accident totallly changed my riding style or rather riding awareness. Trust me, it's much better to ride safely on the bike than to ride fast in an ambulance !!!
Ride safe y'all
Bubba
#35
12-08-2007, 10:15 AM
RE: Emergency stops
ORIGINAL: easyglider
No! Why make yourself slide? The BEST way to avoid this car(No where to swerve?) is to STAY upright and get stopped using BOTH brakes.Also if you lay your bike down it is your fault according to the law and once the metal hits the road what's stopping you?You should keep the bike vertical and apply BOTH brakes more than likely the front won't lock up(assuming dry concrete or asphalt)the forward weight of the biketrasnfers the weight to the front tire and less on the back(hence the tendency of the rear to lock up)!
No! Why make yourself slide? The BEST way to avoid this car(No where to swerve?) is to STAY upright and get stopped using BOTH brakes.Also if you lay your bike down it is your fault according to the law and once the metal hits the road what's stopping you?You should keep the bike vertical and apply BOTH brakes more than likely the front won't lock up(assuming dry concrete or asphalt)the forward weight of the biketrasnfers the weight to the front tire and less on the back(hence the tendency of the rear to lock up)!
ORIGINAL: tbrown2
So is it better to t-bone acage that has stopped in the middle of the intersection in front of you or lay it down and take the slide? This is saying you know that you don't have the distance to come to a complete stop before you get to the vehicle in the intersection. Particularly if you are 2 up and know the passenger will do a flying Whalenda impersonation if you t-bone the cage.
So is it better to t-bone acage that has stopped in the middle of the intersection in front of you or lay it down and take the slide? This is saying you know that you don't have the distance to come to a complete stop before you get to the vehicle in the intersection. Particularly if you are 2 up and know the passenger will do a flying Whalenda impersonation if you t-bone the cage.
This whole thing about "laying it down" is the biggest pile of crap I've ever heard. Folks, "laying it down" is not something you choose to do. It is a crash. Period. How many of you have ever "laid it down?" Huh? I would be willing to bet that if you went out to a controlled environment (say, a track), put on full race leathers and whatever other protective gear you thought you might need, and then attempted to "lay it down" from, say, 50 mph, pretty much no one would be able to do it, or if they did, it would be a high side.
Laying it down is dead, people. Get it out of your head. It is not an option. Learn how to use your brakes, and more important, learn how to ride with your brain focusing on avoiding trouble.
#36
12-08-2007, 10:23 AM
RE: Emergency stops
Lot's of good information on this thread. One thing I haven't yet seen mentioned is the weight transfer of your bike when braking, which is the cause of manyrear wheel skids. When both brakes are applied for maximum braking, the weight will transfer to your front wheel, making the rear wheel less heavy on the pavement. Because of this, you can apply ever increasing front braking, but at the same time, you must be releasing rear brake pressure. Maximum braking occurs when you brake, and continue to brake, just to the point of impending skid.
As mentioned earlier, keep head and eyes up and forward while maximum braking, but at the same time be aware ofthe possibleopportunity to swerve around your obstacle, either to the front or back, by hard countersteering after releasing the brakes. The inexperienced rider will often just say "Oh, Sheet" and sight fixate on the obstacle and drive right into it.Emergency swervingis one of the excercises taught even in the basic MSF class. Brake, then swerve, or swerve then brake--but never both at the same time.
In regards to Paniolo's comments about the study of motor officers being thrown, I participated in a world wide cycle safety forum a few years ago, and one of the interesting things that is taught in some foreign countries is that if an impact with a vehicle in front of youis not preventable, is to stand up on the footpegs right at the moment of impact, to help you be thrown over the top of the vehicle you are hitting, rather than be thrown into it. This is even more relevant in the U.S., where more and more of our vehicles are higher SUVs, resulting in more serious injuries to cyclists colliding with them.
One comment I'd like to add about MSF: Their basic class is designed to teach people who have never ridden to get proficient enough to earn their license. No beginning rideris coming out of that 16 hour class with "experience." Knowing the basics by taking the class can save your life, but it is only the beginning of the learning experience, and there are many more advanced courses available to teach even more advanced skills. What Paniolo teaches is a perfect example. I am a life long rider, taught MSF for six years and was an "Instructor of the Year", but I learned more about slow speed manuevers intwo hours watching the Ride Like a Pro videos then I knew after 40 years of riding. I have the advantage of having a MSF training range just a few blocks from my home, and practice often, but any of you can do the same on any large parking lot or a lightly traveled road.
You can never practice too much, or have too much experience or knowlege. Just make sure you have the correct information, and you don't always get that on a discussion forum.
[IMG]local://upfiles/38853/586E896A3FED4553B2499FE5E50E8FBB.jpg[/IMG]
As mentioned earlier, keep head and eyes up and forward while maximum braking, but at the same time be aware ofthe possibleopportunity to swerve around your obstacle, either to the front or back, by hard countersteering after releasing the brakes. The inexperienced rider will often just say "Oh, Sheet" and sight fixate on the obstacle and drive right into it.Emergency swervingis one of the excercises taught even in the basic MSF class. Brake, then swerve, or swerve then brake--but never both at the same time.
In regards to Paniolo's comments about the study of motor officers being thrown, I participated in a world wide cycle safety forum a few years ago, and one of the interesting things that is taught in some foreign countries is that if an impact with a vehicle in front of youis not preventable, is to stand up on the footpegs right at the moment of impact, to help you be thrown over the top of the vehicle you are hitting, rather than be thrown into it. This is even more relevant in the U.S., where more and more of our vehicles are higher SUVs, resulting in more serious injuries to cyclists colliding with them.
One comment I'd like to add about MSF: Their basic class is designed to teach people who have never ridden to get proficient enough to earn their license. No beginning rideris coming out of that 16 hour class with "experience." Knowing the basics by taking the class can save your life, but it is only the beginning of the learning experience, and there are many more advanced courses available to teach even more advanced skills. What Paniolo teaches is a perfect example. I am a life long rider, taught MSF for six years and was an "Instructor of the Year", but I learned more about slow speed manuevers intwo hours watching the Ride Like a Pro videos then I knew after 40 years of riding. I have the advantage of having a MSF training range just a few blocks from my home, and practice often, but any of you can do the same on any large parking lot or a lightly traveled road.
You can never practice too much, or have too much experience or knowlege. Just make sure you have the correct information, and you don't always get that on a discussion forum.
[IMG]local://upfiles/38853/586E896A3FED4553B2499FE5E50E8FBB.jpg[/IMG]
#37
12-08-2007, 11:06 AM
RE: Emergency stops
This is what the MSF course teaches, not to let off of a locked rear brake, and they have an exercise in the course that requires student riders to ride the locked brake. That's fine if the bike continues to travel in a straight line, but often (especially on the Harley) the rear end begins to step out. Continuing to ride with the rear wheel locked will likely result in a low side crash.
That is a perfect example what I just stated about erroneous information found on forums such as this. First, aHarley is no more or less likely to "step out" than any other bike, and their overall low center of gravity often makes them easier to handle than many other bikes. If you keep your front tire "rolling" (not locked up) and pointing straight ahead, and the bike upright by keeping your eyes up and looking forward you will maintain your equilibrium and balance. If your front tire is rolling and going straight, the rear can wag from side to side, which is what it will do if locked up, but it will follow the front all the way to the stop. Releasing the rear may well cause the high side.
Low sides most often happen when the bike is leaned over, such as in a curve, and overbraking occurs. If you are leaned to the left, the bike will slide out to the right, and vice versa. MSF also teaches proper emergency braking in a curve to prevent that from happening, which involves first straightening the bike before applying maximum threshhold braking. Improper braking in a curve is one of the most accident-causingactions involving motorcyclists in a single vehicle crash.
Again, the most important thing is to not skid at all, but once you do, proper training and practice can help you safely deal with it. And if you do go down, it would probably be better to low side and slide down the road, than to be violently thrown off from a high side.
If you are about to change out a rear tire, that would be the perfect time to practice riding out a rear wheel skid...Just make sure you know how to do it before attempting it, and practice at a slow speed. Incidently, the highest speed attained in a basic MSF course is only 20 MPH, and the highest gear used is 2nd. The real world on the street is much different.
That is a perfect example what I just stated about erroneous information found on forums such as this. First, aHarley is no more or less likely to "step out" than any other bike, and their overall low center of gravity often makes them easier to handle than many other bikes. If you keep your front tire "rolling" (not locked up) and pointing straight ahead, and the bike upright by keeping your eyes up and looking forward you will maintain your equilibrium and balance. If your front tire is rolling and going straight, the rear can wag from side to side, which is what it will do if locked up, but it will follow the front all the way to the stop. Releasing the rear may well cause the high side.
Low sides most often happen when the bike is leaned over, such as in a curve, and overbraking occurs. If you are leaned to the left, the bike will slide out to the right, and vice versa. MSF also teaches proper emergency braking in a curve to prevent that from happening, which involves first straightening the bike before applying maximum threshhold braking. Improper braking in a curve is one of the most accident-causingactions involving motorcyclists in a single vehicle crash.
Again, the most important thing is to not skid at all, but once you do, proper training and practice can help you safely deal with it. And if you do go down, it would probably be better to low side and slide down the road, than to be violently thrown off from a high side.
If you are about to change out a rear tire, that would be the perfect time to practice riding out a rear wheel skid...Just make sure you know how to do it before attempting it, and practice at a slow speed. Incidently, the highest speed attained in a basic MSF course is only 20 MPH, and the highest gear used is 2nd. The real world on the street is much different.
#38
12-08-2007, 11:24 AM
Road Warrior
RE: Emergency stops
Paniolo, You are da man!
Great info. Years ago, I was at a WERA race and watched as a rider got pushed off the track and headed straight into armco barrier. Just feet before impact, the rider stood up on the pegs, arms outstretched. The bike imbedded itself into the barrier, he flew over the barrier and landed on the ground behind the barrier. His only injuries were from hitting a idiot corner worker, midflight, who wasn't paying attention.
Great info. Years ago, I was at a WERA race and watched as a rider got pushed off the track and headed straight into armco barrier. Just feet before impact, the rider stood up on the pegs, arms outstretched. The bike imbedded itself into the barrier, he flew over the barrier and landed on the ground behind the barrier. His only injuries were from hitting a idiot corner worker, midflight, who wasn't paying attention.
