Fortune Magazine Article on Harley Davidson
#21
10-09-2007 | 05:42 PM
Road Captain
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From:
RE: Fortune Magazine Article on Harley Davidson
ORIGINAL: Herr Monk
My $.02, if Harley would not have to eliminate the performance gap to capture younger riders, just diminish it. Like I said, what we (and by we I mean 17-30 somethings who have not bought into the plastic fantastic thing) really want is a Harley that performs in the same ball-park as the 650-1000cc rockets. Don't tell me it's impossible, I’ve seen it done by many. Harley needs to make it cheaper to do this, and the Harley culture needs to be supportive of this, rather than sticking its head in its a$$ and saying "I didn't want to do fast anyway". Like I said, my $.02.
My $.02, if Harley would not have to eliminate the performance gap to capture younger riders, just diminish it. Like I said, what we (and by we I mean 17-30 somethings who have not bought into the plastic fantastic thing) really want is a Harley that performs in the same ball-park as the 650-1000cc rockets. Don't tell me it's impossible, I’ve seen it done by many. Harley needs to make it cheaper to do this, and the Harley culture needs to be supportive of this, rather than sticking its head in its a$$ and saying "I didn't want to do fast anyway". Like I said, my $.02.
ORIGINAL: bpdeepwater
Keep in mind the 20 and 25 year olds today in 10 to 15 years will be 35 and 40 and will have the same desires as we have. The company will survive and will continue to be at the top of the game. If you notice the other companies are trying to mimic what Harley has done in the last 10 years, wonder why.
Keep in mind the 20 and 25 year olds today in 10 to 15 years will be 35 and 40 and will have the same desires as we have. The company will survive and will continue to be at the top of the game. If you notice the other companies are trying to mimic what Harley has done in the last 10 years, wonder why.
ORIGINAL: detailer03
How many times do you see people drooling over a sport bike? Few. Harley-Davidson is an American icon. Every kid knows what a Harley is. Almost every motorcycle manufacturer has copied or is still copying H-D.
How many times do you see people drooling over a sport bike? Few. Harley-Davidson is an American icon. Every kid knows what a Harley is. Almost every motorcycle manufacturer has copied or is still copying H-D.
#22
10-09-2007 | 06:13 PM
Elite HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 4,541
Likes: 1
From: Nuevo México, Los Estados Unidos de América
RE: Fortune Magazine Article on Harley Davidson
ORIGINAL: Fred00
That's not gonna happen, ever. The power needed to accelerate a Harley at the rate of even a 600cc sportbike would be rediculous. These 600s have 110rwhp with a pipe and tune, and a Harley weighing over 650lbs would need MUCH more than that to be able to compete. And then we have the 1000cc sportbikes putting out over 160rwhp weighing 440lbs. Forget it...
That's not gonna happen, ever. The power needed to accelerate a Harley at the rate of even a 600cc sportbike would be rediculous. These 600s have 110rwhp with a pipe and tune, and a Harley weighing over 650lbs would need MUCH more than that to be able to compete. And then we have the 1000cc sportbikes putting out over 160rwhp weighing 440lbs. Forget it...
I think your other point is right on:
ORIGINAL: Fred00
wouldn't be so sure of that. It's not the same mentality anymore. Most of the people growing up with these modern sportbikes won't just suddenly be willing to throw away all the performance and handling because they turn 35. Most will probably go for a standard/upright sportbike or a jap sport tourer when they become to old for a real sportbike.
wouldn't be so sure of that. It's not the same mentality anymore. Most of the people growing up with these modern sportbikes won't just suddenly be willing to throw away all the performance and handling because they turn 35. Most will probably go for a standard/upright sportbike or a jap sport tourer when they become to old for a real sportbike.
#23
10-09-2007 | 07:02 PM
Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 5,230
Likes: 4
From: Amherst, VA
RE: Fortune Magazine Article on Harley Davidson
ORIGINAL: Herr Monk
No. But I can't imagine that you would object to the ability to go fast, should the want arise...
P.S. if you have any performance parts you don't want, send them this way
ORIGINAL: Yellotang
I don't want to go fast. Gotta problem with that?
[align=left] [/align]
I don't want to go fast. Gotta problem with that?
[align=left] [/align]
P.S. if you have any performance parts you don't want, send them this way
J/K
#24
10-10-2007 | 01:32 AM
Road Warrior
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,569
Likes: 74
From: ARIZONA
RE: Fortune Magazine Article on Harley Davidson
Well, I think what alot of people need to understand about HP and Torque is that HP really dont mean squat. HP was a way for manufacturers of machines back when internal combustion engines came around to rate their machines versus the horses that they were trying to replace.
The true measure of ANY engine's ability is its TORQUE and the range its found in. Horsepower is simply a calculation BASED on the torque given the speed at which the engine is turning. When building a street performance engine, the goal is always to build as much torque across the widest powerband possible. In addition, the GEARING of the transmission and final drive also come into play. Gear reduction multiplies torque so while designing an engine/trans package, the engineer will take the torque curve and select a gearset that will take the most advantage out of that torque curve.
A Harley by nature is a torque monster, and the gear ratios found in Harley transmissions benifit it. By increasing the available torque, the Harley will have better acceleration off the line. For drag racing, and a large majority of racing found on the streets, TORQUE is king. HP means nothing. HP ratings come into play when momentum, or the lack of a need to create momentum comes into play. For light to light racing or 1/4 mile, you better max your numbers for usable torque.
Another note, when making mods and tuning using a dyno to tune the engine, the best way to determine if your mods made any real difference is to find the AVERAGE increase. Peak torque or HP means nothing if every other point of measurement has LOST or even only made marginal torque or HP gains. To find this number out, take your dyno sheet and find the increases (or possibly decreases) in torqe and hp every 1000 RPM till redline. Take those increases and find the average number. Good technique to use if you actually study the dyno graphs seen in performance mod ads
The true measure of ANY engine's ability is its TORQUE and the range its found in. Horsepower is simply a calculation BASED on the torque given the speed at which the engine is turning. When building a street performance engine, the goal is always to build as much torque across the widest powerband possible. In addition, the GEARING of the transmission and final drive also come into play. Gear reduction multiplies torque so while designing an engine/trans package, the engineer will take the torque curve and select a gearset that will take the most advantage out of that torque curve.
A Harley by nature is a torque monster, and the gear ratios found in Harley transmissions benifit it. By increasing the available torque, the Harley will have better acceleration off the line. For drag racing, and a large majority of racing found on the streets, TORQUE is king. HP means nothing. HP ratings come into play when momentum, or the lack of a need to create momentum comes into play. For light to light racing or 1/4 mile, you better max your numbers for usable torque.
Another note, when making mods and tuning using a dyno to tune the engine, the best way to determine if your mods made any real difference is to find the AVERAGE increase. Peak torque or HP means nothing if every other point of measurement has LOST or even only made marginal torque or HP gains. To find this number out, take your dyno sheet and find the increases (or possibly decreases) in torqe and hp every 1000 RPM till redline. Take those increases and find the average number. Good technique to use if you actually study the dyno graphs seen in performance mod ads
#25
10-10-2007 | 02:05 AM
Road Captain
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 566
Likes: 1
From:
RE: Fortune Magazine Article on Harley Davidson
ORIGINAL: ebeattie
Well, I think what alot of people need to understand about HP and Torque is that HP really dont mean squat. HP was a way for manufacturers of machines back when internal combustion engines came around to rate their machines versus the horses that they were trying to replace.
The true measure of ANY engine's ability is its TORQUE and the range its found in. Horsepower is simply a calculation BASED on the torque given the speed at which the engine is turning. When building a street performance engine, the goal is always to build as much torque across the widest powerband possible. In addition, the GEARING of the transmission and final drive also come into play. Gear reduction multiplies torque so while designing an engine/trans package, the engineer will take the torque curve and select a gearset that will take the most advantage out of that torque curve.
A Harley by nature is a torque monster, and the gear ratios found in Harley transmissions benifit it. By increasing the available torque, the Harley will have better acceleration off the line. For drag racing, and a large majority of racing found on the streets, TORQUE is king. HP means nothing. HP ratings come into play when momentum, or the lack of a need to create momentum comes into play. For light to light racing or 1/4 mile, you better max your numbers for usable torque.
Another note, when making mods and tuning using a dyno to tune the engine, the best way to determine if your mods made any real difference is to find the AVERAGE increase. Peak torque or HP means nothing if every other point of measurement has LOST or even only made marginal torque or HP gains. To find this number out, take your dyno sheet and find the increases (or possibly decreases) in torqe and hp every 1000 RPM till redline. Take those increases and find the average number. Good technique to use if you actually study the dyno graphs seen in performance mod ads
Well, I think what alot of people need to understand about HP and Torque is that HP really dont mean squat. HP was a way for manufacturers of machines back when internal combustion engines came around to rate their machines versus the horses that they were trying to replace.
The true measure of ANY engine's ability is its TORQUE and the range its found in. Horsepower is simply a calculation BASED on the torque given the speed at which the engine is turning. When building a street performance engine, the goal is always to build as much torque across the widest powerband possible. In addition, the GEARING of the transmission and final drive also come into play. Gear reduction multiplies torque so while designing an engine/trans package, the engineer will take the torque curve and select a gearset that will take the most advantage out of that torque curve.
A Harley by nature is a torque monster, and the gear ratios found in Harley transmissions benifit it. By increasing the available torque, the Harley will have better acceleration off the line. For drag racing, and a large majority of racing found on the streets, TORQUE is king. HP means nothing. HP ratings come into play when momentum, or the lack of a need to create momentum comes into play. For light to light racing or 1/4 mile, you better max your numbers for usable torque.
Another note, when making mods and tuning using a dyno to tune the engine, the best way to determine if your mods made any real difference is to find the AVERAGE increase. Peak torque or HP means nothing if every other point of measurement has LOST or even only made marginal torque or HP gains. To find this number out, take your dyno sheet and find the increases (or possibly decreases) in torqe and hp every 1000 RPM till redline. Take those increases and find the average number. Good technique to use if you actually study the dyno graphs seen in performance mod ads
(Hint: The lower torque V-Rod destoys the air-cooled Harley).The V-Rods relative torque to RPM is what gives it its edge over the air-cooled Harley. The higher RPMs of the V-Rod is enough to give it sufficient gearing advantage to overcome the lower torque compared to the air-cooled Harley. This relation of torque to RPM is also what gives it so much power. The V-Rod has much more power than an air-cooled Harley, and that's what gives it its edge.I agree that peak numbers don't tell the whole story, but often they're enough to determine the performance of a vehicle. Compare power/weight ratios to acceleration numbers of a number of vehicles and you will find a pattern, where high power/weight ratio makes for quick acceleration. Now do the same for torque/weight ratio. You will not be able to find a pattern linking torque/weight ratio with performance, because there simply isn't any.
When racing you always want to be as close as possible to the engines peak power in order to maximize rear wheel torque. This is why CVT gearboxes (Continually Variable Transmisson) are running the engine at peak hp for maximum performance.
#26
10-10-2007 | 06:12 AM
Road Captain
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 566
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From:
RE: Fortune Magazine Article on Harley Davidson
ORIGINAL: Herr Monk
That's just not true. I've been out to the drag strip. I've seen this Dyna's do 1/4 miles in under 11 seconds. It only takes about 125hp to get a 650 ilb bike plus rider under an 11 second 1/4 mile. And I am not even talking about stock beating them. There is no real reason that a Harley cannot come stock putting out one hp/in3, that's 96 horses. That would put an experienced rider at just under a 12 second 1/4 mile. I think we would be pretty happy with that, and it would not take more innovation to get it done. Like you said, they make 600cc engine put out 110hp. I think they could get that out of a 96... It would not take an R & D overhaul.
That's just not true. I've been out to the drag strip. I've seen this Dyna's do 1/4 miles in under 11 seconds. It only takes about 125hp to get a 650 ilb bike plus rider under an 11 second 1/4 mile. And I am not even talking about stock beating them. There is no real reason that a Harley cannot come stock putting out one hp/in3, that's 96 horses. That would put an experienced rider at just under a 12 second 1/4 mile. I think we would be pretty happy with that, and it would not take more innovation to get it done. Like you said, they make 600cc engine put out 110hp. I think they could get that out of a 96... It would not take an R & D overhaul.
So,to make a cruiser quick like a sportbike from lights is not particularly hard, but making a cruiser as quick as even a 600cc from 60mph and up will be harder (atleast 150hp). Especially considering a sportbike has a full fairing which improves aerodynamics considerably.
#27
10-10-2007 | 12:09 PM
Banned
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 857
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From:
RE: Fortune Magazine Article on Harley Davidson
ORIGINAL: Fred00
Okay, I'm with you on that one. 125hp is enough to get a Harleyunder 11 secs in the 1/4 mile.The way a sportbike accelerate down the 1/4 mile is very different from a cruiser. A cruiser relies on a quick start due to its long wheelbase, whereas a sportbike can'tget out of the hole very quick due to aits short wheelbase.This means that a 125hp Harley will pull harderfrom the start, and a 600cc will pull harderat speed (from 60mph up) whenthe rider can give itfull throttlewithout risking to flip it. I suspect that the125hpDyna doesn't have a trap speed in excess of 130mph like a 600cc.
So,to make a cruiser quick like a sportbike from lights is not particularly hard, but making a cruiser as quick as even a 600cc from 60mph and up will be harder (atleast 150hp). Especially considering a sportbike has a full fairing which improves aerodynamics considerably.
ORIGINAL: Herr Monk
That's just not true. I've been out to the drag strip. I've seen this Dyna's do 1/4 miles in under 11 seconds. It only takes about 125hp to get a 650 ilb bike plus rider under an 11 second 1/4 mile. And I am not even talking about stock beating them. There is no real reason that a Harley cannot come stock putting out one hp/in3, that's 96 horses. That would put an experienced rider at just under a 12 second 1/4 mile. I think we would be pretty happy with that, and it would not take more innovation to get it done. Like you said, they make 600cc engine put out 110hp. I think they could get that out of a 96... It would not take an R & D overhaul.
That's just not true. I've been out to the drag strip. I've seen this Dyna's do 1/4 miles in under 11 seconds. It only takes about 125hp to get a 650 ilb bike plus rider under an 11 second 1/4 mile. And I am not even talking about stock beating them. There is no real reason that a Harley cannot come stock putting out one hp/in3, that's 96 horses. That would put an experienced rider at just under a 12 second 1/4 mile. I think we would be pretty happy with that, and it would not take more innovation to get it done. Like you said, they make 600cc engine put out 110hp. I think they could get that out of a 96... It would not take an R & D overhaul.
So,to make a cruiser quick like a sportbike from lights is not particularly hard, but making a cruiser as quick as even a 600cc from 60mph and up will be harder (atleast 150hp). Especially considering a sportbike has a full fairing which improves aerodynamics considerably.
The 2 styles of bike are trying to do 2 different things. The weght of the Vtwin and trans/primary setup are a disadvantage. You want to have performance comparable to a sportbike using a big twin cruiser? I would say start by looking at the Italian bikes and Buells, then see how you can incorporate some of that technology into a big twin with cruiser styling. It would definately be interesting to explore, although I think you would wind up with something along the lines of Confederate Motorcycles Hellcat.
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