Harley-Davidson, Rolex in 2024
#11
01-01-2024, 01:49 PM
Still whining about waiting lists from 25-30 years ago? I remember those days. A lot of guys bragged about being on the list, many still have never owned a motorcycle. Some got new ones every year or 2 (gambling away their winnings). A few years later they were trying to cash in on their investment (some still are).
Do people still wear watches?
Do people still wear watches?
#12
01-01-2024, 01:56 PM
So true. I've repaired four salvage H-Ds and one Suzuki in the last couple years. No active project right now and it's driving me nuts during cold weather. I've got my eye on a salvage RT1250 that I'm more excited about repairing than riding. It's pretty much break even on the money invested and no compensation on time spent. The enjoyment is the education and satisfaction of getting a bike back on the road; then riding it a year or so and moving on to the next thing.
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#13
01-01-2024, 03:19 PM
Seasoned HDF Member
This is a portion, slightly edited, of what I posted in a sub-form on a different topic. Thought in might be apropros here. Mods: forgive me if I erred.
Harley owners have changed over time. After WWII Harleys were affordable transportation that was rugged and reasonably reliable - especially for the times. They were put into civilian duty with very weak horsepower but ridden by strong men with strong wills. This begat the Biker Culture and was a place for folks to be outside of mainstream society and within a society of ther own. That somehow morphed into those who did the same thing but only on weekends - if/when their wives let them. Anymore, to some, The Harley is something to own - to be acquired, then kept in a garage, often under a cover only seeing the light of day to be worshipped and knelt before with a microfiber cloth and expensive lotions.
In the post-AMF era, the bikes got much more reliable (Evo) and (some) dealers started getting a little greedy - feeling (maybe rightfully so) that they were owed one after the AMF period. Waiting lists, pre-paid deposits, no color choices, forced chrome bolt-ons, whether you wanted them or not became the order of things in certain dealerships. Take it or give up your spot on the waiting list. I was actually told by a dealer that I purchased many bikes from that I couldn't get a bike I wanted until one-year had passed as their "policy" was not to allow two purchases in one year - unless I traded to them the prior purchase. Though I was not among them, flippers were a common thing in some areas back then.
Hans Wilsdorf founded Rolex - a name that means nothing in any known language but is easy to pronounce in any language. He intended his watches to be rugged, durable and affordable for the common man. Now, Rolex is the master of marketing - having made itself a status symbol that is recognized the world over. Watches made by PP, AP, L&S and others may be better, but everyone knows a Rolex. Jewelers that didn't have large "boutiques" were squeezed out by the Rolex Mothership. Sound familiar? There's waiting lists years long for some sought after models (i.e. SS Daytonas) that are very much over priced. Sound familiar? But somehow wearing a Rolex allows someone to show off how they "have arrived." Sound familiar? Rolex has forced inventory on its retailers such that many watches sneak out the side door to Grey Market dealers - who have flourished. Rolex Mothership cracked down on this and now bloated inventories are hidden out of sight so that customers can still view them as hard to get and "exclusive." Sound familiar? Secondary market prices for pre-owned Rolexes are falling notwithstanding that many delusional sellers keep their watch(es) listed at prices that deny reality. Sound familiar? All of this being said, rightly or wrongly, Rolex does hold on to its world renowned Status Symbol status.
News flash for Sneaker Boy: Harley-Davidson ain't Rolex!
Timex, Casio, Citizen and Seiko make very good watches (especially Grand Seiko), but they're not a Rolex. Suzuki, Yamaha, Honda, Kawasaki and Indian/Polaris make very good motorcycles, but they're not a Harley. That being said, the whole "Lifestyle" thing has been waning. Many of our wonderful WWII veterans have sadly "Gone West" and those that criss-crossed America on Panheads with Army surplus duffelbags strapped to the bike are now criss-crossing the hallways of nursing homes with a different type of bag strapped to their wheelchairs. What was once the "Wild Ones" (MLLH&R for BFMC) became the "Wild Hogs" and more miles were likely put on the bikes producing that movie than many Harley owners put on their bikes in a year. Nothing wrong with any of this - things change.
All this having been said, the Harley-Davidson MoCo has pissed off and pissed on the faithful for too long. They squeezed too much juice from the fruit. While the faithful stopped (or substantially reduced) riding, stopped (or substantially reduced) buying new Harleys and certainly stopped buying $40 Chinese T-Shirts (even with eagles, flags, skulls, lightening bolts on them), the MoCo has failed again and again to attract a new flock (of sheep to fleece) with their new bikes. Have you noticed the low financing rates on 2022 and 2023 models? Think about it, if the rate is below the cost of money, it means that HOG (or Eaglemark) is subsidizing the purchase! Some dealerships have so many '23s in the back room that they don't know where the '24s will go. Not unlike rebranded or "licensed" Wolverine manufacturer boots, maybe Official MoCo sneakers will be a hit.
HOG has channel stuffed dealerships, re-capitalized, shucked & jived, ducked & weaved their way through many 90-day reporting cycles such that the stockholders, wary though they may be, haven't given up ... yet. Like you reading this, I'm here on this forum because I like H-D, am interested in the bikes and those that ride them but the lack of (admitted/overt) participation by the MoCo to interact meaningfully with us and those like us is both annoying and disappointing. The silence is deafening as the saying goes.
I hang and ride with some crusty old bikers as well as weekend warriors; I even own and ride other brands of motorcycles - but I do like Harleys the most, just wish the H-D MoCo would like us in return. Despite the tenor of this post, I do wish for the H-D MoCo to succeed as it benefits me and those like me. H-D is trying but their efforts are misguided on multiple fronts: products, pricing, perception. We aren't talking Rolexes or sneakers here - HOG needs to get a clue.
Harley owners have changed over time. After WWII Harleys were affordable transportation that was rugged and reasonably reliable - especially for the times. They were put into civilian duty with very weak horsepower but ridden by strong men with strong wills. This begat the Biker Culture and was a place for folks to be outside of mainstream society and within a society of ther own. That somehow morphed into those who did the same thing but only on weekends - if/when their wives let them. Anymore, to some, The Harley is something to own - to be acquired, then kept in a garage, often under a cover only seeing the light of day to be worshipped and knelt before with a microfiber cloth and expensive lotions.
In the post-AMF era, the bikes got much more reliable (Evo) and (some) dealers started getting a little greedy - feeling (maybe rightfully so) that they were owed one after the AMF period. Waiting lists, pre-paid deposits, no color choices, forced chrome bolt-ons, whether you wanted them or not became the order of things in certain dealerships. Take it or give up your spot on the waiting list. I was actually told by a dealer that I purchased many bikes from that I couldn't get a bike I wanted until one-year had passed as their "policy" was not to allow two purchases in one year - unless I traded to them the prior purchase. Though I was not among them, flippers were a common thing in some areas back then.
Hans Wilsdorf founded Rolex - a name that means nothing in any known language but is easy to pronounce in any language. He intended his watches to be rugged, durable and affordable for the common man. Now, Rolex is the master of marketing - having made itself a status symbol that is recognized the world over. Watches made by PP, AP, L&S and others may be better, but everyone knows a Rolex. Jewelers that didn't have large "boutiques" were squeezed out by the Rolex Mothership. Sound familiar? There's waiting lists years long for some sought after models (i.e. SS Daytonas) that are very much over priced. Sound familiar? But somehow wearing a Rolex allows someone to show off how they "have arrived." Sound familiar? Rolex has forced inventory on its retailers such that many watches sneak out the side door to Grey Market dealers - who have flourished. Rolex Mothership cracked down on this and now bloated inventories are hidden out of sight so that customers can still view them as hard to get and "exclusive." Sound familiar? Secondary market prices for pre-owned Rolexes are falling notwithstanding that many delusional sellers keep their watch(es) listed at prices that deny reality. Sound familiar? All of this being said, rightly or wrongly, Rolex does hold on to its world renowned Status Symbol status.
News flash for Sneaker Boy: Harley-Davidson ain't Rolex!
Timex, Casio, Citizen and Seiko make very good watches (especially Grand Seiko), but they're not a Rolex. Suzuki, Yamaha, Honda, Kawasaki and Indian/Polaris make very good motorcycles, but they're not a Harley. That being said, the whole "Lifestyle" thing has been waning. Many of our wonderful WWII veterans have sadly "Gone West" and those that criss-crossed America on Panheads with Army surplus duffelbags strapped to the bike are now criss-crossing the hallways of nursing homes with a different type of bag strapped to their wheelchairs. What was once the "Wild Ones" (MLLH&R for BFMC) became the "Wild Hogs" and more miles were likely put on the bikes producing that movie than many Harley owners put on their bikes in a year. Nothing wrong with any of this - things change.
All this having been said, the Harley-Davidson MoCo has pissed off and pissed on the faithful for too long. They squeezed too much juice from the fruit. While the faithful stopped (or substantially reduced) riding, stopped (or substantially reduced) buying new Harleys and certainly stopped buying $40 Chinese T-Shirts (even with eagles, flags, skulls, lightening bolts on them), the MoCo has failed again and again to attract a new flock (of sheep to fleece) with their new bikes. Have you noticed the low financing rates on 2022 and 2023 models? Think about it, if the rate is below the cost of money, it means that HOG (or Eaglemark) is subsidizing the purchase! Some dealerships have so many '23s in the back room that they don't know where the '24s will go. Not unlike rebranded or "licensed" Wolverine manufacturer boots, maybe Official MoCo sneakers will be a hit.
HOG has channel stuffed dealerships, re-capitalized, shucked & jived, ducked & weaved their way through many 90-day reporting cycles such that the stockholders, wary though they may be, haven't given up ... yet. Like you reading this, I'm here on this forum because I like H-D, am interested in the bikes and those that ride them but the lack of (admitted/overt) participation by the MoCo to interact meaningfully with us and those like us is both annoying and disappointing. The silence is deafening as the saying goes.
I hang and ride with some crusty old bikers as well as weekend warriors; I even own and ride other brands of motorcycles - but I do like Harleys the most, just wish the H-D MoCo would like us in return. Despite the tenor of this post, I do wish for the H-D MoCo to succeed as it benefits me and those like me. H-D is trying but their efforts are misguided on multiple fronts: products, pricing, perception. We aren't talking Rolexes or sneakers here - HOG needs to get a clue.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
#14
01-01-2024, 03:40 PM
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#15
01-01-2024, 04:14 PM
#16
01-01-2024, 04:35 PM
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#18
01-01-2024, 06:05 PM
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#19
01-01-2024, 06:13 PM
Exactly. It's almost as if he copied and pasted from someplace, but the reality is, Rolex pieces can be bought at retail, Chrono24 prices are coming down and Rolex is supposedly expanding production. It's a post-COVID Rolex world out there, much of the hype is normalizing with the exception of the highly prized scarcities. People buy Rolex every day.
The whole post by the OP is not exactly a good analogy or comparison. Both HD and Rolex sell every unit they make.
The whole post by the OP is not exactly a good analogy or comparison. Both HD and Rolex sell every unit they make.
6113, I can assure you that I did not copy and paste anything other than much of my post on a separate sub-forum here. These are my thoughts though I suspect they may be shared by others,
As for secondary market pricing of new (grey) and pre-owned Rolexes, yes they are higher than they were pre-COVID, but have chilled in recent months - still at lofty levels IMO, but stabilized for some models and reduced for others. The SS sports models have been hot and still are - just not as much as they were a while ago.
Last edited by Jehu; 01-01-2024 at 06:15 PM.
#20
01-01-2024, 07:06 PM
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