Harley Davidson Pan America -final form
#161
10-23-2020, 07:25 PM
Regarding the 1250GS being the target, yes, in the big bike bracket there's the GS, and then nothing else. Let me put it this way, I did an ADV off-road course and there were 25 bikes there. 20 of them were BMW GS's. There were two KTMs, a sole Africa Twin, a lone Tenere 700, and my V85TT.
Half of BMW's sales are GS bikes. They are far and away the world leader in the segment. So, yeah, if Harley want to sell a 1250cc Pan America, it's got to hit the 1250 pretty squarely.
Can Harley succeed? Most definitely. Almost all posts about the LiveWire are from pessimists crapping on it, but if they've actually sold the 1,000 they manufactured through March, they will have amassed $30,000,000 in sales, about the same as Zero's entire 9-bike lineup (and Zero's been selling electric bikes for 16 years).
Will the Pan Am be a success? Who can say? It looks very different, which could be a selling point. It may be more dirt-oriented, which could be a strong selling point. It has a much larger dealer network, which could be a good selling point. It it all depends on the head to head reviews. If it's evaluated to be just as good as the 1250GS, and comparably priced, it could be a big hit.
If it's a big fat bloated under-featured underpowered overpriced dog, then no, it won't sell.
Half of BMW's sales are GS bikes. They are far and away the world leader in the segment. So, yeah, if Harley want to sell a 1250cc Pan America, it's got to hit the 1250 pretty squarely.
Can Harley succeed? Most definitely. Almost all posts about the LiveWire are from pessimists crapping on it, but if they've actually sold the 1,000 they manufactured through March, they will have amassed $30,000,000 in sales, about the same as Zero's entire 9-bike lineup (and Zero's been selling electric bikes for 16 years).
Will the Pan Am be a success? Who can say? It looks very different, which could be a selling point. It may be more dirt-oriented, which could be a strong selling point. It has a much larger dealer network, which could be a good selling point. It it all depends on the head to head reviews. If it's evaluated to be just as good as the 1250GS, and comparably priced, it could be a big hit.
If it's a big fat bloated under-featured underpowered overpriced dog, then no, it won't sell.
#162
10-23-2020, 07:31 PM
Road Master
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Banana Republic of amerika
Posts: 1,195
Received 1,346 Likes
on
546 Posts
The following 3 users liked this post by -Boogieman-:
#163
10-23-2020, 07:37 PM
Stellar HDF Member
Looking at the PA it appears more targeted to the GS Adventure (the engine guard, bash plate, etc). That starts at $20,345. Depending on the Harley's options (the electronics suite, adjustable suspension, etc), it needs to be neck-and-neck with the Adventure. A loaded GS/A with bags is over $26,000. If a loaded PA is right there, then it'll do okay. If it's $30k like the Livewire.....Forget it.
I am hoping they will announce the ADV at the third quarter financials seeing that they are on the floor in Europe already
#164
10-23-2020, 07:41 PM
I just don't think the manufacturers can make an adv bike that the inseam challenged can flat foot. That's asking a lot. Most shorter guys I know that ride adv bikes hang their *** off at stops and put the left foot only down. I will say, a couple of those guys are the best riders I know. It's really something to see them stand on the pegs of a KTM 1290 adventure with full bags and ride a wheelie out as long as they want.
The following 2 users liked this post by RK4ME:
CanadianRocky (10-23-2020),
nevada72 (10-24-2020)
#165
10-23-2020, 07:54 PM
Outstanding HDF Member
That'll buff right out.
And to back up the train a bit - I understand your earlier points on the big GS and you clearly haver experience (crashes are "experience"
)
My point is it would be unfair to summarily dismiss the big GS as not off road worthy. I've taken my GS down some pretty hairy stuff. Yeah, it was a lot more work than with a lighter bike. But then I was able to get on the interstate and cruise home at 90 MPH for 850 miles in total comfort.
Does the 790 bridge that gap to offer off road fun and interstate worthiness? I haven't a clue. I've never ridden one. But I can say that any bike that I truly can tear it up off road on and have a blast is just not well suited to highway use. My KTM exc was wonderful off road. And it wasn't even that bad on the highway. But the lack of cush drive would have chewed the transmission to bits. It really wasn't meant to spend much time on pavement, let alone hundreds of miles.
And to back up the train a bit - I understand your earlier points on the big GS and you clearly haver experience (crashes are "experience"
)My point is it would be unfair to summarily dismiss the big GS as not off road worthy. I've taken my GS down some pretty hairy stuff. Yeah, it was a lot more work than with a lighter bike. But then I was able to get on the interstate and cruise home at 90 MPH for 850 miles in total comfort.
Does the 790 bridge that gap to offer off road fun and interstate worthiness? I haven't a clue. I've never ridden one. But I can say that any bike that I truly can tear it up off road on and have a blast is just not well suited to highway use. My KTM exc was wonderful off road. And it wasn't even that bad on the highway. But the lack of cush drive would have chewed the transmission to bits. It really wasn't meant to spend much time on pavement, let alone hundreds of miles.
I'll ship it out to Colorado next year... It's only $400 from haulbikes now that they have a warehouse here in Jax.
At this point in my life, I enjoy fly and ride instead. Not too interested in the trip between destinations.
There's no question, the GS is the most comfortable traveling bike I've ever ridden (for me... Back issues). I could ride that bike from sun up to sun down forever. It will also go 120 mph on the highway like you're sitting in a Lexus. Truly amazing. It's just not as much fun on BDR routes, which I'm currently doing in my life. The KTM is like riding a mountain bike on steroids. The technology and suspension is crazy good. You can blast through rock gardens like nobody's business.
Sliding around corners on gravel going 60mph on the GS makes me nervous. I can't stick out my leg without worrying I'm going to break it if slides too far. The KTM I don't worry about... I know I can catch it safely.
Lastly, I put a rekluse on the KTM... And that will be the first thing that goes on any of my bike in the future. It's night and day game changing... It almost feels like cheating. You'll never stall on any technical stuff...
Good stuff.
I'm going to stay out of it now. Wasn't trying to stir the pot or chest thump, just gave my opinion. Which works for me... We're all different.
The following users liked this post:
CanadianRocky (10-23-2020)
#167
10-23-2020, 09:20 PM
Ultimate HDF Member
[QUOTE=ChrisHo;19487671]I too am hoping for some price competitiveness but when you hit the 25k version you are dealing with a bike that has features that Harley may not put on their version, from heated grips and seats, electronically adjustable suspension, shift assist (no clutch), adaptive headlight, and more. BMW rakes it in when you start adding to the bike but loaded ADV bikes tend to have features Harley never even had on CVOs./QUOTE]
I'm hoping the Mothership was smart about it. Offering this type of bike without an electric suspension, heated grips and seat, and badass stability/traction control would be suicide.
I'm hoping the Mothership was smart about it. Offering this type of bike without an electric suspension, heated grips and seat, and badass stability/traction control would be suicide.
#168
10-24-2020, 02:11 AM
Grand HDF Member
#169
10-24-2020, 05:48 AM
Stellar HDF Member
I would happily do 5000 miles on the 790, in bite size pieces... 250-350 miles a day. I have no interest in doing 500+ mile days on this bike. It's just not fun, but you could do it.
I'll ship it out to Colorado next year... It's only $400 from haulbikes now that they have a warehouse here in Jax.
At this point in my life, I enjoy fly and ride instead. Not too interested in the trip between destinations.
There's no question, the GS is the most comfortable traveling bike I've ever ridden (for me... Back issues). I could ride that bike from sun up to sun down forever. It will also go 120 mph on the highway like you're sitting in a Lexus. Truly amazing. It's just not as much fun on BDR routes, which I'm currently doing in my life. The KTM is like riding a mountain bike on steroids. The technology and suspension is crazy good. You can blast through rock gardens like nobody's business.
Sliding around corners on gravel going 60mph on the GS makes me nervous. I can't stick out my leg without worrying I'm going to break it if slides too far. The KTM I don't worry about... I know I can catch it safely.
Lastly, I put a rekluse on the KTM... And that will be the first thing that goes on any of my bike in the future. It's night and day game changing... It almost feels like cheating. You'll never stall on any technical stuff...
Good stuff.
I'm going to stay out of it now. Wasn't trying to stir the pot or chest thump, just gave my opinion. Which works for me... We're all different.
I'll ship it out to Colorado next year... It's only $400 from haulbikes now that they have a warehouse here in Jax.
At this point in my life, I enjoy fly and ride instead. Not too interested in the trip between destinations.
There's no question, the GS is the most comfortable traveling bike I've ever ridden (for me... Back issues). I could ride that bike from sun up to sun down forever. It will also go 120 mph on the highway like you're sitting in a Lexus. Truly amazing. It's just not as much fun on BDR routes, which I'm currently doing in my life. The KTM is like riding a mountain bike on steroids. The technology and suspension is crazy good. You can blast through rock gardens like nobody's business.
Sliding around corners on gravel going 60mph on the GS makes me nervous. I can't stick out my leg without worrying I'm going to break it if slides too far. The KTM I don't worry about... I know I can catch it safely.
Lastly, I put a rekluse on the KTM... And that will be the first thing that goes on any of my bike in the future. It's night and day game changing... It almost feels like cheating. You'll never stall on any technical stuff...
Good stuff.
I'm going to stay out of it now. Wasn't trying to stir the pot or chest thump, just gave my opinion. Which works for me... We're all different.
#170
10-24-2020, 06:13 AM
I would happily do 5000 miles on the 790, in bite size pieces... 250-350 miles a day. I have no interest in doing 500+ mile days on this bike. It's just not fun, but you could do it.
I'll ship it out to Colorado next year... It's only $400 from haulbikes now that they have a warehouse here in Jax.
At this point in my life, I enjoy fly and ride instead. Not too interested in the trip between destinations.
There's no question, the GS is the most comfortable traveling bike I've ever ridden (for me... Back issues). I could ride that bike from sun up to sun down forever. It will also go 120 mph on the highway like you're sitting in a Lexus. Truly amazing. It's just not as much fun on BDR routes, which I'm currently doing in my life. The KTM is like riding a mountain bike on steroids. The technology and suspension is crazy good. You can blast through rock gardens like nobody's business.
Sliding around corners on gravel going 60mph on the GS makes me nervous. I can't stick out my leg without worrying I'm going to break it if slides too far. The KTM I don't worry about... I know I can catch it safely.
Lastly, I put a rekluse on the KTM... And that will be the first thing that goes on any of my bike in the future. It's night and day game changing... It almost feels like cheating. You'll never stall on any technical stuff...
Good stuff.
I'm going to stay out of it now. Wasn't trying to stir the pot or chest thump, just gave my opinion. Which works for me... We're all different.
I'll ship it out to Colorado next year... It's only $400 from haulbikes now that they have a warehouse here in Jax.
At this point in my life, I enjoy fly and ride instead. Not too interested in the trip between destinations.
There's no question, the GS is the most comfortable traveling bike I've ever ridden (for me... Back issues). I could ride that bike from sun up to sun down forever. It will also go 120 mph on the highway like you're sitting in a Lexus. Truly amazing. It's just not as much fun on BDR routes, which I'm currently doing in my life. The KTM is like riding a mountain bike on steroids. The technology and suspension is crazy good. You can blast through rock gardens like nobody's business.
Sliding around corners on gravel going 60mph on the GS makes me nervous. I can't stick out my leg without worrying I'm going to break it if slides too far. The KTM I don't worry about... I know I can catch it safely.
Lastly, I put a rekluse on the KTM... And that will be the first thing that goes on any of my bike in the future. It's night and day game changing... It almost feels like cheating. You'll never stall on any technical stuff...
Good stuff.
I'm going to stay out of it now. Wasn't trying to stir the pot or chest thump, just gave my opinion. Which works for me... We're all different.
Funny how you are saying the 790 is a small bike.
25 years ago I lived in the Australian Outback. I had a Honda XR250 (they were street legal down under) rode that thing all over the desert. Buddy of mine had a KLR 650. I rode it off road once and thought it was a heavy unmanageable beast. I was in my 30's and in good physical shape back then. I wouldn't want to take even the Tenere 700 on a tough technical off road section now that I am old and fat.
If I bought a 1200GS or a Pan America worst it would see is a gravel road or grass field. If I want to take an off road trip I don't think I would go bigger than a 400.