Passenger sliding around
#41
09-06-2018, 04:27 PM
Supporter
#42
09-06-2018, 04:50 PM
Road Captain
So let's look at this whole "braking while turning" thing.
First off, your corner entry speed should be pretty much set by the time you reach your turn-in point. If you want to trail-brake the front brake into the corner, that's fine, as long as you realize that you only have 100% of the traction available- if you're using 60% of your front tire traction for turning, and you also try to use 60% of the front tire's traction for braking, you're gonna slide the front tire at the very least, and if you don't let off the front brake, you're gonna fold the front and low-side.
So why do people suddenly feel the need to brake mid-corner anyway? Usually it's because of panic. They get lost in the corner. They THINK that they're going too fast to make the corner, which makes them fear that they're going to exceed the available traction, slide, and fall down. This is a vision problem. Before they even get to the corner, they should be looking at their turn-in point. Once they reach their turn-in point, they should switch to looking in the direction of their apex. And once they hit their apex, they should be looking at the exit of the corner. It is VERY rare that someone crashes because they were actually going too fast to make the corner. And even if they were at the limit of traction, any braking at that point at all, would CAUSE the tire(s) to lose traction.
So let's look at what you have to gain, and what you have to lose, from using the rear brake in a corner. As you brake, regardless of which brake(s) you use, weight is shifted forward, to the front tire. At some point, you will have transferred enough weight off of the rear tire's contact patch, that ANY braking will cause the rear tire to skid. And this is where things get really bad- the rear tire steps out, your brain's subconscious instantly diagnoses the problem causing your foot to come off the rear brake, and the rear tire then suddenly regains traction, while the motorcycle is still sideways, snapping bolt upright, and flinging you (and your passenger if you have one) UP and over the high side of the bike at roughly TWICE the speed you were traveling. To add insult to injury, the motorcycle will then follow you (and your passenger if you have one) into whatever you hit, just like the anvil follows Wile E. Coyote off the cliff. If it's a right-hand corner, your riding error could fling you (and your passenger if you have one) under the front bumper of an oncoming car.
By contrast, let's look at what could go wrong with using the front brake while cornering and the consequences of that. If you do not overwhelm the front tire's traction from using the front brake during a corner, the motorcycle will slow down to the point that you are no longer in panic mode. If you do overwhelm the front tire's traction from using the front brake during a corner, the front tire will slide, which scrubs off speed, which is what you wanted anyways. It will also reduce your ground clearance, so you will need to let off the front brake before hard parts start touching the ground. When you let off the front brake, the front tire will regain traction and the front tire will snap back in line. The bars will wag a little bit, but you'll be fine. If you DON'T let off the front brake before hard parts start touching the ground, you'll fold the front and fall down. You'll fall down at less than half of the speed as you would have if you had high-sided yourself off of the rear brake. You'll only fall a couple of inches, because if you've run out of ground clearance, you're already pretty darned close to the pavement. And you'll follow your motorcycle as you slide, which is a lot better than the other way around.
Irrational fear of the front brake, just like irrational fear of horsepower, is one of the MAJOR indicators of a lack of riding skill.
Keith Code puts first-time novice riders on his fleet of 200-horsepower BMW S1000RR motorcycles, and his students hardly ever crash, even in the rain.
First off, your corner entry speed should be pretty much set by the time you reach your turn-in point. If you want to trail-brake the front brake into the corner, that's fine, as long as you realize that you only have 100% of the traction available- if you're using 60% of your front tire traction for turning, and you also try to use 60% of the front tire's traction for braking, you're gonna slide the front tire at the very least, and if you don't let off the front brake, you're gonna fold the front and low-side.
So why do people suddenly feel the need to brake mid-corner anyway? Usually it's because of panic. They get lost in the corner. They THINK that they're going too fast to make the corner, which makes them fear that they're going to exceed the available traction, slide, and fall down. This is a vision problem. Before they even get to the corner, they should be looking at their turn-in point. Once they reach their turn-in point, they should switch to looking in the direction of their apex. And once they hit their apex, they should be looking at the exit of the corner. It is VERY rare that someone crashes because they were actually going too fast to make the corner. And even if they were at the limit of traction, any braking at that point at all, would CAUSE the tire(s) to lose traction.
So let's look at what you have to gain, and what you have to lose, from using the rear brake in a corner. As you brake, regardless of which brake(s) you use, weight is shifted forward, to the front tire. At some point, you will have transferred enough weight off of the rear tire's contact patch, that ANY braking will cause the rear tire to skid. And this is where things get really bad- the rear tire steps out, your brain's subconscious instantly diagnoses the problem causing your foot to come off the rear brake, and the rear tire then suddenly regains traction, while the motorcycle is still sideways, snapping bolt upright, and flinging you (and your passenger if you have one) UP and over the high side of the bike at roughly TWICE the speed you were traveling. To add insult to injury, the motorcycle will then follow you (and your passenger if you have one) into whatever you hit, just like the anvil follows Wile E. Coyote off the cliff. If it's a right-hand corner, your riding error could fling you (and your passenger if you have one) under the front bumper of an oncoming car.
By contrast, let's look at what could go wrong with using the front brake while cornering and the consequences of that. If you do not overwhelm the front tire's traction from using the front brake during a corner, the motorcycle will slow down to the point that you are no longer in panic mode. If you do overwhelm the front tire's traction from using the front brake during a corner, the front tire will slide, which scrubs off speed, which is what you wanted anyways. It will also reduce your ground clearance, so you will need to let off the front brake before hard parts start touching the ground. When you let off the front brake, the front tire will regain traction and the front tire will snap back in line. The bars will wag a little bit, but you'll be fine. If you DON'T let off the front brake before hard parts start touching the ground, you'll fold the front and fall down. You'll fall down at less than half of the speed as you would have if you had high-sided yourself off of the rear brake. You'll only fall a couple of inches, because if you've run out of ground clearance, you're already pretty darned close to the pavement. And you'll follow your motorcycle as you slide, which is a lot better than the other way around.
Irrational fear of the front brake, just like irrational fear of horsepower, is one of the MAJOR indicators of a lack of riding skill.
Keith Code puts first-time novice riders on his fleet of 200-horsepower BMW S1000RR motorcycles, and his students hardly ever crash, even in the rain.
Last edited by ChickinOnaChain; 09-21-2018 at 03:14 PM. Reason: Multiple posts
#43
09-06-2018, 05:08 PM
Supporter
So let's look at this whole "braking while turning" thing.
First off, your corner entry speed should be pretty much set by the time you reach your turn-in point. If you want to trail-brake the front brake into the corner, that's fine, as long as you realize that you only have 100% of the traction available- if you're using 60% of your front tire traction for turning, and you also try to use 60% of the front tire's traction for braking, you're gonna slide the front tire at the very least, and if you don't let off the front brake, you're gonna fold the front and low-side.
So why do people suddenly feel the need to brake mid-corner anyway? Usually it's because of panic. They get lost in the corner. They THINK that they're going too fast to make the corner, which makes them fear that they're going to exceed the available traction, slide, and fall down. This is a vision problem. Before they even get to the corner, they should be looking at their turn-in point. Once they reach their turn-in point, they should switch to looking in the direction of their apex. And once they hit their apex, they should be looking at the exit of the corner. It is VERY rare that someone crashes because they were actually going too fast to make the corner. And even if they were at the limit of traction, any braking at that point at all, would CAUSE the tire(s) to lose traction.
So let's look at what you have to gain, and what you have to lose, from using the rear brake in a corner. As you brake, regardless of which brake(s) you use, weight is shifted forward, to the front tire. At some point, you will have transferred enough weight off of the rear tire's contact patch, that ANY braking will cause the rear tire to skid. And this is where things get really bad- the rear tire steps out, your brain's subconscious instantly diagnoses the problem causing your foot to come off the rear brake, and the rear tire then suddenly regains traction, while the motorcycle is still sideways, snapping bolt upright, and flinging you (and your passenger if you have one) UP and over the high side of the bike at roughly TWICE the speed you were traveling. To add insult to injury, the motorcycle will then follow you (and your passenger if you have one) into whatever you hit, just like the anvil follows Wile E. Coyote off the cliff. If it's a right-hand corner, your riding error could fling you (and your passenger if you have one) under the front bumper of an oncoming car.
By contrast, let's look at what could go wrong with using the front brake while cornering and the consequences of that. If you do not overwhelm the front tire's traction from using the front brake during a corner, the motorcycle will slow down to the point that you are no longer in panic mode. If you do overwhelm the front tire's traction from using the front brake during a corner, the front tire will slide, which scrubs off speed, which is what you wanted anyways. It will also reduce your ground clearance, so you will need to let off the front brake before hard parts start touching the ground. When you let off the front brake, the front tire will regain traction and the front tire will snap back in line. The bars will wag a little bit, but you'll be fine. If you DON'T let off the front brake before hard parts start touching the ground, you'll fold the front and fall down. You'll fall down at less than half of the speed as you would have if you had high-sided yourself off of the rear brake. You'll only fall a couple of inches, because if you've run out of ground clearance, you're already pretty darned close to the pavement. And you'll follow your motorcycle as you slide, which is a lot better than the other way around.
First off, your corner entry speed should be pretty much set by the time you reach your turn-in point. If you want to trail-brake the front brake into the corner, that's fine, as long as you realize that you only have 100% of the traction available- if you're using 60% of your front tire traction for turning, and you also try to use 60% of the front tire's traction for braking, you're gonna slide the front tire at the very least, and if you don't let off the front brake, you're gonna fold the front and low-side.
So why do people suddenly feel the need to brake mid-corner anyway? Usually it's because of panic. They get lost in the corner. They THINK that they're going too fast to make the corner, which makes them fear that they're going to exceed the available traction, slide, and fall down. This is a vision problem. Before they even get to the corner, they should be looking at their turn-in point. Once they reach their turn-in point, they should switch to looking in the direction of their apex. And once they hit their apex, they should be looking at the exit of the corner. It is VERY rare that someone crashes because they were actually going too fast to make the corner. And even if they were at the limit of traction, any braking at that point at all, would CAUSE the tire(s) to lose traction.
So let's look at what you have to gain, and what you have to lose, from using the rear brake in a corner. As you brake, regardless of which brake(s) you use, weight is shifted forward, to the front tire. At some point, you will have transferred enough weight off of the rear tire's contact patch, that ANY braking will cause the rear tire to skid. And this is where things get really bad- the rear tire steps out, your brain's subconscious instantly diagnoses the problem causing your foot to come off the rear brake, and the rear tire then suddenly regains traction, while the motorcycle is still sideways, snapping bolt upright, and flinging you (and your passenger if you have one) UP and over the high side of the bike at roughly TWICE the speed you were traveling. To add insult to injury, the motorcycle will then follow you (and your passenger if you have one) into whatever you hit, just like the anvil follows Wile E. Coyote off the cliff. If it's a right-hand corner, your riding error could fling you (and your passenger if you have one) under the front bumper of an oncoming car.
By contrast, let's look at what could go wrong with using the front brake while cornering and the consequences of that. If you do not overwhelm the front tire's traction from using the front brake during a corner, the motorcycle will slow down to the point that you are no longer in panic mode. If you do overwhelm the front tire's traction from using the front brake during a corner, the front tire will slide, which scrubs off speed, which is what you wanted anyways. It will also reduce your ground clearance, so you will need to let off the front brake before hard parts start touching the ground. When you let off the front brake, the front tire will regain traction and the front tire will snap back in line. The bars will wag a little bit, but you'll be fine. If you DON'T let off the front brake before hard parts start touching the ground, you'll fold the front and fall down. You'll fall down at less than half of the speed as you would have if you had high-sided yourself off of the rear brake. You'll only fall a couple of inches, because if you've run out of ground clearance, you're already pretty darned close to the pavement. And you'll follow your motorcycle as you slide, which is a lot better than the other way around.
I'm with you about slowing to your turn-in speed BEFORE entering the turn (my first part of concern with the above diagram). Preferably, using BOTH brakes. If you're not on the throttle in the turn (not gunning it, but throttling), you're doing it wrong.
Unfortunately, in the real world, **** happens in mid-turn from time to time. Maybe you come around a blind turn and there's an object or animal in your path... maybe you're following too closely and the vehicle in front of you slows... regardless, you're healed over, and you need to slow down.
I use the rear brake only in a turn. You asked why - because I can control both the turn, and any lockup, better with the rear than the front.
In a turn, if you lock your rear, depending on the turn, you can 1) ride the bike into a slide easier, or 2) recover and un-lock the brake easier without high-siding.
1) Ride into a "low-side". As you pointed out, this is preferable to a high-side, every day and twice on Sunday. I personally believe I could stay on the pedal longer than the lever. But more importantly:
2) It is easier to recover from a rear slide than a front in a turn. If you lock the rear, if you can recover quickly and unlock the rear, you can recover control of the bike easier than if you do the same with the front. The rear will slide out, causing a sharper turn, and when you let off, the bike will try to stand up, but there's room to recover. This is something I've actually experienced. If the front locks up and starts to slide, you begin to "understeer", and when you unlock, you tend to be thrown the same way as you were drifting (I have no experience with doing this). Too, in my hands, hard braking the front makes the bike a low more squirrely in the turn than using the rear.
For these reasons, in the even that I have to steer in mid-turn, I use ONLY the rear.
YMMV.
Irrational fear of the front brake, just like irrational fear of horsepower, is one of the MAJOR indicators of a lack of riding skill.
Keith Code puts first-time novice riders on his fleet of 200-horsepower BMW S1000RR motorcycles, and his students hardly ever crash, even in the rain.
Keith Code puts first-time novice riders on his fleet of 200-horsepower BMW S1000RR motorcycles, and his students hardly ever crash, even in the rain.
And THIS irrational BS is why no one wants to talk to you....
Last edited by ChickinOnaChain; 09-21-2018 at 03:15 PM. Reason: Multiple posts
#44
09-06-2018, 05:12 PM
Road Captain
Buddy, I've seen an AWFUL lot of crashes, and I can tell you that risking a high-side is MUCH more dangerous than risking a low-side.
And again, this is a vision problem. In the absence of proper training, motorcyclists tend to look right in front of their own motorcycle, and then when they panic, they look directly at what they don't want to hit.
And again, this is a vision problem. In the absence of proper training, motorcyclists tend to look right in front of their own motorcycle, and then when they panic, they look directly at what they don't want to hit.
#45
09-06-2018, 05:23 PM
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#46
09-06-2018, 05:53 PM
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#47
09-06-2018, 07:45 PM
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I'm new to riding, about 3000 miles so far on my Dyna FLD 2012 and wife has just started to ride with me. She is a bit timid and her complaint aside from not having a seatbelt is that she slides forward and back on the passenger seat.
She's about 104 lbs and it's a stock seat with a HD backrest. Is there anything I can do to cut down on her sliding? I bought a grab strap and considering putting that on but I don't know if that will really help her.
She's about 104 lbs and it's a stock seat with a HD backrest. Is there anything I can do to cut down on her sliding? I bought a grab strap and considering putting that on but I don't know if that will really help her.
Oh, and seatbelts on motorcycles are over-rated. 
#48
09-07-2018, 08:17 AM
Seasoned HDF Member
As to why brake in a turn? Many reasons come into play out on the road as have been mentioned. One common pucker moment for many riders is riding in an unknown area and hitting a descending radius curve too hot.
BTW - the diagram was a MikeR1 signature move. Maybe before your time and maybe not. He was our very short lived forum know it all. You're on the fast track to stealing his crown. Some people already think you are his fake noob.
#49
09-07-2018, 08:57 AM
Supporter
Buddy, I've seen an AWFUL lot of crashes, and I can tell you that risking a high-side is MUCH more dangerous than risking a low-side.
And again, this is a vision problem. In the absence of proper training, motorcyclists tend to look right in front of their own motorcycle, and then when they panic, they look directly at what they don't want to hit.
And again, this is a vision problem. In the absence of proper training, motorcyclists tend to look right in front of their own motorcycle, and then when they panic, they look directly at what they don't want to hit.
High-siding is worse than low-siding... I don't know anyone who would argue otherwise. The debate becomes how to avoid them.
In my personal experience, most accidents where a motorcycle failed to negotiate a turn properly in a SVA, the motorcyclist overrode his abilities, but not the motorcycles ability. In many instances, it involved locking the brakes (front, rear, or both) in a turn, but in nearly all of them, the motorcycle also wasn't tracking through the turn when the locked brakes began. I've worked bikes that slid into other traffic (both oncoming and otherwise), vehicles that slid out in a low-side, and vehicles that high-sided. In almost every low-side (maybe every one - I don't recall off the top of my head one with the front), the only locked brake was the rear.
Yes, "target fixation" is most probably part of the equation, but that's hard to discern when the motorcyclist isn't around to describe it.
The greatest lesson I learned from all the accidents? Set your speed entering a turn, accelerate gently through it, and trust the motorcycle. If you're drifting out (meaning not making the turn), countersteer into it and trust the motorcycle.
Now then - after this extreme hijack of the OP's thread, let's get back to passengers sliding around, shall we?
