Ok......I'm going to try to use the most plain words possible so that maybe you get it. Maybe I was overly vague about something I thought was obvious. Maybe others missed my point too, so I'll elaborate.

I'm not saying the R1200R is a cruiser. I'm not saying the Softails are a sport bike. I'm not even really talking about types of bikes specifically. What I am talking about is two bikes - Harley and everything else. Because prior to the Softails, that's what it came down to for a lot of people - not just Harley people. So that's why I consider it "apples to apples" if you want to dwell on that. But I would say more like Golden Delicious as compared to Granny Smith. Feel better?

So now with the Softails - my OPINION is - they have moved away from Harleyness in sufficient measure that people who might consider those, might very well consider something else. And if one wishes to remain in the dark and think that people looking at the Softails are only looking at cruisers, well......I can only say I disagree. Especially re: the ones looking at the Fat Bob.

Interestingly enough, I know of a reverse example. A gentleman on another forum had a Yamaha S10. He was bored with it and was going to buy a FZ10. A bike one could argue is a UJM version of the R1200R, which by the way, is not a sport bike no matter how you slice it. A sport bike is something like a R1 or GSXR in my book. Anyway, he went to a Harley demo and fell in love with the 114 Fat Bob and bought one.

So here's a guy who is all set to buy a Yamaha "R1200R" (please don't make me explain why I typed it that way) and he ends up on a Fat Bob? Why? Because the Fat Bob now satisfies part of what a metric buyer is looking for - speed, handling, and brakes. The bonus for this person was that it brought a level of Harleyness to the equation that did not exist before.

This factor I did not anticipate. The UJM rider enjoyed the "Harley" feel that I feel has been diminished to the extent that it's not a Harley anymore. So what is insufficient for me, turns out to be perfect for a new Harley owner. In that respect I would say it was a win for the Moco. Only time will tell if this represents a trend.

Like when you called the R1200R a sport bike?

 

I agree on the Vmax looks. I was out in BC last year to visit my mom and brother. My Brothers latest bike is an older Vmax. I kept teasing him about the looks. Well look what Harley has gone and done.

 

Good post - thanks!

I bought a 2014 FatBob in 2014, and at that time a lot of folk were up in arms about the look of the new 2014 rear fender, how "metric" it looked, etc, etc.... but I really liked it so I bought one!

I now have a deposit on 114" 2018 FatBob as I like the look of that bike even better - and with the improved frame, suspension and engine I just had to have one.

I have also been considering Triumphs, BMWs and Ducatis over the last year, but none of them have that special "something" that Harleys do in my opinion. I have dealerships for all three of those within 10 miles of my house, so I have been mooching there looking at the bikes, but none of the really sang to me.

The 2018 FatBob did sing as soon as I saw it. I love my 2014, but the 2018 is just better.

 

Never in any of my comments did I call the R1200R a sport bike. What I did say though is this: "the R1200R is built on a sport bike platform", which it undeniably is.

Ok, now to the guy who bought the Fat Bob when he was looking at an FZ10. The new Fat Bob is unique in a way where it's the hot rod of the new Softail line. It was designed to get the attention of guys like the one you mentioned. It's to Harley what the Corvette or Camaro is to Chevrolet. I wouldn't place the rest of the Softail lineup in the same category. I'm wondering if you're truly basing this loss of "feel", or "Harlyness" as you call it, off of one bike, the Fat Bob. Not fair if you are. If this is the case I have to assume you felt the same way about the company when they came out with the VRods.

From this point on I'm eliminating the Fat Bob from the conversation and will focus on the rest of the Softail lineup. HD simply improved an old and tired line of bikes and designed them to be better..... faster, handle better, be more nimble, have better lean angles, and get better gas mileage. Maybe they dropped the ball on the Fat Boy with the big *** fat front tire that most likely makes the steering heavy. I don't know for sure but I will after I test ride one. I hear guys complaining about the look..."they don't look like Harley's", "they look like metrics". I strongly disagree. Any moron who has spent any amount of time around Harley's would be able to determine, even from a distance, that these are Harley's, down to which model they are. Their look hasn't changed as drastically as some are crying about. The biggest changes of course are to the Street Bob and Low Rider, for obvious reasons. But even they still look like Harley's, and still kept some of their characteristics from when they were Dyna's. The old Softail's simply got a facelift.

Some guys say they don't like the 3.5 gal tanks that are on only 3 of the 8 new Softail's. Some guys don't like blacked out motors, on only 3 of 8. Some guys don't like the new headlights, again on only 3 of the 8. Some guys don't like the smoothness of the M8 but seem to forget that the Twin Cam was smoother than previous motors without losing its "Harleyness". And some guys think they don't like the new Softail's but will begin to eventually (I know this from experience).

I'm sensing that some have not been clear or honest (not necessarily you, but maybe you too) about the real reason they feel these new Harley's are not Harley's anymore. Seems to me that "Harleyness" is another word for status, and for some crazy reason some people feel that status will diminish if a new slew of riders that HD hasn't been able to reach over the past 20 years jump on board and join their "exclusive club". I don't choose a bike brand to be part of an exclusive club or part of a family. I choose based on what I like and what type of riding I'll be doing with it.

This kind of reminds me a lot of back in the day when Harley Davidson reached out and hauled in a ton of new and different types of buyers; lawyers, doctors, stock brokers, and other white collar workers & professionals who earned high salaries and wanted to become part of the “HD family”. Many of those professionals were probably the same guys who are bitching about the new Softail’s today, just as the old school HD guys who were tooling around on old shovel heads and pan heads complained back then when these professionals were entering their “current exclusive club”.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on it. No skin off my back if HD loses some of their old faithfuls who feel they lost their status. My guess is that they'll gain what they lost by a large margin.

 

Whew!! This is getting really deep.

 

It's a shitshow.

 

I hear you, I really dig what Triumph have done with their bobber. Spot on styling imo and they are supposed to have plenty of go too. If I was in the market for another bike, they'd be up there on the list.

 

Now we're getting somewhere. Other than your take on the R1200R frame, I really can't disagree with your comments. And even at that it's splitting hairs. I think you were correct when you called it a "standard" or some such the 1st time around. But regardless.....

I don't recall ever saying they weren't Harleys anymore. My feelings on the topic is that they are "less Harley" than they were before. Thing is, I felt my 2014 SGS was less Harley than the Ultra I had before it. The engine was smoother and the bike handled so much tighter - and at that level of less harleyness, I found it to be acceptable. Oddly enough when I first demo'd one, I called it a Honda -Davidson, which I didn't consider an insult.

Which is the crux of this whole discussion - as these bikes evolve and become unquestionably "better" mechanically and performance wise, at what point to the become less Harley to whomever is buying it? And what the hell is Harley in the 1st place, let alone less Harley?? That, obviously, is up to the individual. And as I pointed about before, to some the new Softails are more Harley than they were used to, which was seen as a positive.

Getting deep indeed!

So for my part I'm not a fan of the direction they went. Yes, improvement and evolution was long overdue for the Softail line. No question. And no, it doesn't bother me that they dropped the Dyna name. It's just a name. The new bikes are all new bikes. They could have just as easily dropped the Softail name and called it the new Dyna platform and then the Softail guys would be freaking out. I believe they should have dropped both names and just called the bikes by their specific model like Fat Bot and Low Rider. And as far as appearance goes, I actually like the way some of the bikes look. Even the Fat Boy looks cool with those bigass wheels. I think someone mentioned they are like the new Camaros and Mustangs that retain their identity despite the all new platform. I agree with that.

So without rehashing the whole, they lost some of their core buyer appeal to bring in a new demographic argument, I'll simply say I don't fit the new bikes. Did you see the video of that ******** that sprayed the bike black? He absolutely dwarfed that bike. He and I are the same height. The guy probably outweighs me by 50 pounds of muscle, but none the less, I simply can't get comfortable on most of them. The Heritage was borderline, but I still looked like a monkey on a football sitting on it.

 

Technology advances were of course necessary and if the dyna's needed to take one for the team, then so be it. On the other hand, I really feel the styling issues are most prominent in the ex-dyna line. And I don't think only the old Dyna fans notice. Also the younger target market will see it.

 

We are all concentrating on style issues here. I just finished reading in the oil migration/low tranny oil treads. While maybe a small proportion of M8s, I cannot afford to be in that situation. Maybe it only happens on touring M8s. I am postponing my decision on a '17 and 18 Ultra until i am confident this issue is resolved for all M8 engines. My buddies 17 Road Glide Ultra tranny loses oil and the dealer tells him "There is nothing wrong"? He has had it in twice and they just tell him "Its normal". Maybe this is similar to the Steaming Eagle's, the Rushmore's poor tolerances in the cooling system. A simple fix once identified.

I asked our dealer salesman about it and he had heard nothing. It might be nothing, it might be an issue, it might be easily fixed once what is causing it is known, but when the salesman says he has not heard about it, somebody is either lying or being kept in the dark. I know for a fact that my buddy has spoken to him several times about his issue on his bike. I wonder now if we opened his primary if we would find the missing oil.