But if a bike doesn't look appealing to a prospective buyer it doesn't really matter how they ride or perform. If that weren't true Victory might still be going and Harley would still be cranking out V-Rods in record numbers.

 

That happened when GM bought them... A GM Saab - 'nuff said.

Oh, I get it. I just think turn signals being the main turnoff is a tad... nit-picky. Especially on a Harley, whose P&A catalog runneth over. People didn't NOT buy a victory because they didn't like the turn signals.

 

I think Saab is back... but they died initially off because they refused to lose their uniqueness. GM bought Saab, told them to make cheaper, less quality cars based on GM platforms and they ignored them and kept doing their thing, so GM killed them off.

 

"After seeing the 2018 line-up, Are you going to buy?"
The poll is skewed and not valid. If you are happy with the new bikes but not in the market, there is no option for that.

 

It is more of a poll for whether you like the bikes or not, the way I see it. Not everyone voting no was going to buy one anyway and not everyone who voted yes has ordered one or plans to. JMO

 

I had to correct my post. He actually has a 2017 Road King Special that he loves. I forgot about that one. So he obviously is cool with the M8, and he likes the touring line still, other than the high prices. Mainly because it's largely unchanged.

My thoughts on his opinion are - agree or disagree, he represents the current buying demographic that made HD a success. He's 50 years old and has owned nothing but Harleys. He and I have, for years, discussed whether or not Harley should evolve. He has been steadfast in his opposition to it. He maintains that people who buy Harleys are buying a 57 Chevy. No one else makes one and it's what attracts buyers to Harley Davidson - the nostalgia, and the unique feel that goes with it.

I, coming from a metric backround, disagreed. I felt improvement was needed, within reason. I liked my 2011 UC, but it was sorely lacking in the power department. My 2014 SGS laid that complaint to rest. It's not perfect, but it does a really good job and still has that Harley feel. But I will say, it had noticeably less "Harley-ness" than the 11 UC. Imo, just the right amount that it was much improved, but still a Harley. The only thing I would like to see improved is the suspension. I really thought they were going to the monoshock, common core frame to share with the Dyna line. I was very interested to see those bikes.

I haven't ridden the new bikes. I was going to today, but it turns out the demo rides at the Pilgrim Rd plant are for HOG members only. So they missed out on their chance to impress not only me, but the audience they are supposedly trying to attract - new Harley buyers (who obviously wouldn't be HOG members). Pretty stupid imo.

On the Deluxe - I really don't like the turn signals either. i don't think tey fit the context of the bike. Like drawing a mustache on the Mona Lisa -

 

I cannot speak for you or the 10,000s of other Harley riders. Nor do I have the marketing answers for my own business, much less Harley's. I am not bound to making my monthly or quarterly stock look good enough for my investors, nor am I driven by a corporate bonus after the accountant has massaged the numbers.

I just know what I like. More to the point, I know what I will spend my money on.
1. My first consideration is the ride. Balance, torque, power, ergonomics, etc. Does it feel like I can carve Rattlesnake at 45+, pass a semi on a winding two lane, run from here to Testy Fest on I-90 basically non-stop and leave me feeling ready to relax when I arrive.
2. My second consideration is appeal. Does it appeal to my sense of what my motorcycle should be. The sport touring bikes lacked that for me even if I loved the ride. Actually, one metric I owned years ago did, but Harley owns this feeling. The Indian seems like an also ran. The current metrics each wrong in their own way. Maybe it is this thing we call soul, maybe that's just bullshit.
3. Affordability. Not the cheapest, but cost overall. I tend to ride a motorcycle for an average of 8 years. We average between 7500 miles and 17,000 miles depending on how many long trips we take. Last year, over 17,000, this year we'll be near 12,000. So the cost is balanced over 8 years. If I can buy a cheaper bike and ride it for 4 years, I figure I'm better off with a more expensive investment in my riding. Will I get $ 3000-4000 value a year riding that bike. I figure I do.
4. I'm not worried about trade in value or selling it used. Whatever fair price I get is good enough as I have got my money's worth out riding it. My bike usually has 50-60,000 miles at a minimum when I sell or trade. Nowadays this is consider "High" mileage.
5. I am traditional. My hobby is vintage bikes. My Harley is a reflection of that. I hated the performance of the '52 Indian Chief in 1963 and I see no reason today to change my opinion of a Polaris. Commitment to the industry and longevity do mean something to me. My secretary was with me for 42 years, my warehouse manager has been with me for 38. Harley's have been in my life for 54 years. It is true that I secretly hated my '47 knucklehead and that I liked my '42 flathead for its reliability. I fell in love at 16 with my '61 XLH. If any bike made me a Harley fan, it was that bike.

Now my response to the '18s. I don't care about the softtails. They have always been what Indian was going after and just did not appeal to me. I rode hardtails and I appreciate the DuoGlide! I like the Heritage Classic and the original Deluxe, but I don't smoke dope anymore so the '18 offerings just did not target me as a customer. So What! I am just 1 rider. Statistically, I am not important to anyone.

My concern is that I need a new touring bike. The '18s are unchanged from the '17s. That is okay with me, Yesterday I spent several hours at our dealership looking at new bikes. I just could not find myself embracing the Limiteds. I don't like some of the design features. Engine may be terrific, but it looks like the engine, frame and plumbing people all designed in a vacuum and then tried to marry their ideas. Even the salesman got confused on how to do things with the non-intuitive screen. Does it really take that many steps. In another hour or so, I'm signed up for the test rides. We'll see. We'd like to end up with a new bike as we are planning a 20,000 miles ride next summer. We plan to leave our current bike in the Southwest so we have a ride there. I did look and test a Polaris Indian, but I just don't see what all the Indian hype is all about. The only exception was the Jack Daniel's bike. I have concerns about Polaris as well. I have less concerns about Indian, but for now they are connected. I think they need to buy themselves from Polaris and become a motorcycle company.

The long and short is that I read your comments to see where mine might be misguided. I took a long look at the '18 Heritage because I wanted to try and understand where Harley management and engineering are headed. I still did not like it. Oh sure, it had features that were improvements, but at what cost and what cost savings.Locking bags is a good idea. I hope the Vincent inspired shock/frame works as great as we think it may.

I'm long winded because I am about to spent $ 30,000+ on a motorcycle. A new bike is a huge investment for me. I have been saving for 8 years so that I can get exactly what I want. Harley has just made it more difficult for me, not by giving me options, but by removing some of the essence of why I ride a Harley. It may still be the best choice, just not as obvious now.

Got to head over to the dealership for my 1 hour test ride. I hope it is a great one. Low '80s, perfect weather.

 

I hear this nonsense a lot and it's just rubbish.

GM and Ford basically saved Saab, Volvo, Jaguar, Land Rover and Aston Martin from extinction when they bought these brands. Yes, they did nothing spectacular with them, but they kept the companies a float. In the case of the Ford, they sold them off to new owners who've helped them thrive.

Nobody wanted Saab because Saab had lost all relevance.

 

Myself I have a 2016 Fatboy lo that so far has cost to get where I want it buying any other bike would be starting over but I do like the Fat Bob ( not the 3.6 gallon tank)but I was never a big Dyna guy

 

ALL opinions are valid. My point was to throw the bike out (so to speak) for something as inane as turn signals, to me shows a general resistance to "newness".

I'm also 50 - also part of the "core constituency". But like you, I come from a rather "mixed background"; I started on metrics because that was all I could afford for a long time. I tried Honda (twice), then Kawasaki (twice). Then I rode a Victory (Kingpin). I LOVED that bike! The best motorcycle I'd owned to that point. I toured on it a couple times and, in a pinch, it worked OK. It wasn't a Harley, but it was American made, and that meant a lot to me (still does).

I sold the Kingpin and bought a stage 4 Deuce. Holy CRAP that thing was awesome! It was a 95", 100HP, 100tq, 650-lb ROCKET sled. I rode the hell out of that thing.

After missing touring with my buddies for a few seasons, I knew it was time to get something with bags. I traded into a 2010 Ultra Limited. AWESOME touring bike... HEAVY around town.

Traded in March 2016 for my 2016 Road Glide Special. I LOVE this bike! The best of both worlds. A better tourer than the Limited (to me), and MUCH better around town.

Sorry - got off on a tangent. My point is - I look for improvements to pry my pocketbook open. If it's just "newer" or new colors, I'll keep what I've got. Frankly, I've seen the Motor Company suffer a bit from it's own previous success; why buy a NEW 103" TC in a 2017 Heritage, when it looks, handles, and generally IS the same as your 2010 Heritage? Hell, you've probably already spend $5k getting that 2010 where you want it... what's the catalyst?

Those looking to get into the touring "business", but don't want a full dresser, why buy a $18,000 Heritage when a Nomad costs so much less, has better handling, smoother engine...? AND it's been updated twice in the last decade?

Innovation drives demand. This innovation was necessary. It was time. Honestly, I get where your buddy is coming from, to a point. But only to a point. Look at the Challenger... Camaro... Mustang.... You can SEE the "roots:, but they won't be mistaken for a '69 by just about anyone.

THAT'S what I think the MoCo has done.


ETA: FWIW - I hate the Road King Special. It looks like a stripped down police model to me, and doesn't even come with a windshield - for MORE money. But hey - progress!

Yeah... they saved them. Just long enough to close them. Well done.