Counter-steering
#832
10-22-2016 | 02:13 PM
Road Warrior
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 1,512
Likes: 344
From: Ohio
damnit man! where were you six hours ago???
No, I didn't dry it with the leaf blower but that's brilliant! If I can find a good wiki diagram on how to do it properly I might just re-wash my lawnmower.
No, I didn't dry it with the leaf blower but that's brilliant! If I can find a good wiki diagram on how to do it properly I might just re-wash my lawnmower.
#833
10-22-2016 | 02:24 PM
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,234
Likes: 561
From: Vegas, baby!
So did you actually go for a ride and see for yourself how things work? Other posters have pointed out books to read or videos to watch which disagree, apparently, with whatever you claim to have read or whatever you have 'figured' out for yourself; so try it out for yourself?
You be the judge of what works, and doesn't work. By actually riding and seeing what happens if you actually turn 'into' the turn direction at speed.
If you don't actually attempt this, you are merely speculating on the result. Don't you agree?
Last edited by rjg883c; 10-22-2016 at 02:37 PM.
#835
10-22-2016 | 03:30 PM
Thread Starter
|
Banned
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 580
Likes: 14
From: Texas
This is like a train-wreck that you go out of your way to drive past in your travels, you can't help yourself and you just keep returning to observe.
I kept resisting getting involved, but perhaps a fresh perspective can get through after so many well thought out response have tried.
There have been a multitude of good responses that the OP keeps twisting in his/her obsession to be the ONLY one who is right (In his/her mind.)
Let me offer a couple of thoughts on the two images put up seemingly 100 times by the OP.
1st, the picture that seems to depict the cyclist turning his wheel into the turn.
We don't know enough about what is going on in that picture or what happens before or after the instant shown, but one simple possibility is that the image is taken exactly as the rider is emerging the turn and is now correcting the counter steer to right the bike and go down the straightaway.
We just don't know and cannot tell from that single image.You are right but one of the possibilities is that he is not counter-steering, but merely trying to maintain the current lean angle.
Now, the much displayed PERFECT CORNER diagram, and most likely the perfect corner seldom exists, you do counter steer through the turn, period. No, you can take the period off. You do not have to counter-steer through the turn. There are many turns you can take by slowing down, setting your lean angle(by using a momentary counter steer) and then accelerating in the direction you want to go. I know, I did it today a couple of times.
Let me suggest what the diagram may be implying.
Look at the verbiage on the diagram for clues that the originator MAY have been trying to convey. I am going to ask you to do the same thing. Now what do you think the diagram was trying to convey by using a momentary counter-steer to initiate the lean angle but no counter-steering through the turn? That is a clue to. In fact that is the clue that caused me to dig deeper.
As you Enter the curve the diagram lists TURN IN which to me implies an active rotation (Counter-steer) to set up for the curve. No.
The next section REDUCE to me implies that a course correction and stabilization takes place once the curve is set up and underway.
The next section which the OP seemingly does not understand, or is screwing with everyone with, is labeled STABLE LEAN ANGLE and INCREASING THROTTLE.
They called it a stable lean because they were not counter-steering in the turn. The lean angle was constant, hence no need to counter-steer.
STABLE LEAN ANGLE is a steady "Perfect" counter-steer position to set your course through the "Perfect" corner.
Experienced riders realize that this seldom is the case and minute corrections are made in real life most times but we also know that if you are turning right to are pushing on the right side of the handle bar if you are traveling at speed. For every corner entering speed there is a stable lean angle determined by the speed of the vehicle. The throttle is used to keep the speed constant through the turn. If the speed is constant and the angle is the correct angle for the speed then the lean angle will be stable. If the speed is too fast, you will have to counter-steer to make a momentary correction (like firing a thruster rocket on a satellite to change its orbit) to the lean angle to turn a tighter arc.
OP if you really have a bike and can do a road test, I'll suggest that you put a pointer of some sort on the triple tree that is very close to a line on a stable part of your bike, perhaps a tape with a line on it on your tank.
Do a quick test to verify that the pointer and line mark are in alignment when you are going straight, then negotiate YOUR perfect corner and speed and if you can safely do so, periodically glance down to see if the pointer and line mark are in alignment as you negotiate your perfect corner at speed.
Don't be surprised to find that your pointer and marker are not precisely aligned when you do so.
If you are going through a corner at speed you are doing some counter-steer unless you are correcting your cornering.
If there are "tricks" used by professionals on a track that do differently I don't know them and like others I have 45+ years of varying amount of riding behind me.
Be careful, and good luck if you actually intend to prove this to yourself.
But good grief this has been a painful thread to watch.Then why are you watching it?
I kept resisting getting involved, but perhaps a fresh perspective can get through after so many well thought out response have tried.
There have been a multitude of good responses that the OP keeps twisting in his/her obsession to be the ONLY one who is right (In his/her mind.)
Let me offer a couple of thoughts on the two images put up seemingly 100 times by the OP.
1st, the picture that seems to depict the cyclist turning his wheel into the turn.
We don't know enough about what is going on in that picture or what happens before or after the instant shown, but one simple possibility is that the image is taken exactly as the rider is emerging the turn and is now correcting the counter steer to right the bike and go down the straightaway.
We just don't know and cannot tell from that single image.You are right but one of the possibilities is that he is not counter-steering, but merely trying to maintain the current lean angle.
Now, the much displayed PERFECT CORNER diagram, and most likely the perfect corner seldom exists, you do counter steer through the turn, period. No, you can take the period off. You do not have to counter-steer through the turn. There are many turns you can take by slowing down, setting your lean angle(by using a momentary counter steer) and then accelerating in the direction you want to go. I know, I did it today a couple of times.
Let me suggest what the diagram may be implying.
Look at the verbiage on the diagram for clues that the originator MAY have been trying to convey. I am going to ask you to do the same thing. Now what do you think the diagram was trying to convey by using a momentary counter-steer to initiate the lean angle but no counter-steering through the turn? That is a clue to. In fact that is the clue that caused me to dig deeper.
As you Enter the curve the diagram lists TURN IN which to me implies an active rotation (Counter-steer) to set up for the curve. No.
The next section REDUCE to me implies that a course correction and stabilization takes place once the curve is set up and underway.
The next section which the OP seemingly does not understand, or is screwing with everyone with, is labeled STABLE LEAN ANGLE and INCREASING THROTTLE.
They called it a stable lean because they were not counter-steering in the turn. The lean angle was constant, hence no need to counter-steer.
STABLE LEAN ANGLE is a steady "Perfect" counter-steer position to set your course through the "Perfect" corner.
Experienced riders realize that this seldom is the case and minute corrections are made in real life most times but we also know that if you are turning right to are pushing on the right side of the handle bar if you are traveling at speed. For every corner entering speed there is a stable lean angle determined by the speed of the vehicle. The throttle is used to keep the speed constant through the turn. If the speed is constant and the angle is the correct angle for the speed then the lean angle will be stable. If the speed is too fast, you will have to counter-steer to make a momentary correction (like firing a thruster rocket on a satellite to change its orbit) to the lean angle to turn a tighter arc.
OP if you really have a bike and can do a road test, I'll suggest that you put a pointer of some sort on the triple tree that is very close to a line on a stable part of your bike, perhaps a tape with a line on it on your tank.
Do a quick test to verify that the pointer and line mark are in alignment when you are going straight, then negotiate YOUR perfect corner and speed and if you can safely do so, periodically glance down to see if the pointer and line mark are in alignment as you negotiate your perfect corner at speed.
Don't be surprised to find that your pointer and marker are not precisely aligned when you do so.
If you are going through a corner at speed you are doing some counter-steer unless you are correcting your cornering.
If there are "tricks" used by professionals on a track that do differently I don't know them and like others I have 45+ years of varying amount of riding behind me.
Be careful, and good luck if you actually intend to prove this to yourself.
But good grief this has been a painful thread to watch.Then why are you watching it?
Counter-steering is one of the ways to lean your bike. That is its purpose. It is not the only way to lean your bike. If the bike is in a stable lean you are not counter-steering (That is why they called it a stable lean). You counter-steer to increase or decrease the lean angle. If you are not increasing or decreasing your lean angle you are not counter-steering. If you are already leaning, the force you are exerting is used to maintain the lean. I think many members are mistaking the pressure needed to maintain the lean as counter-steering.
I am the only one who knows what happened in this thread because I am the only one who read all the serious posts. When someone like you jumps into the middle of it you are very likely not going to be working with all the information.
I don't have much time right now but here is a whole bunch of pictures of leaning motorcycles.
https://www.google.com/search?q=lean...w=1195&bih=807
You neglected to mention that the diagram does not show the rider is counter-steering during the stable lean. If you read the wikipedia article you would know that leaving that out was intentional, because the words "stable lean" and "counter-steering" are contradictory terms.
Most technical definitions of the word "counter-steer" define it using the word "momentary". They specifically say that it is a "momentary" turning of the wheel in a direction opposite to the desired direction. And, again, looking at the diagram, you should see that the counter-steer is indeed "momentary". I think they use that word because they view counter-steering as a momentary action to "correct" the lean angle. However, in many real world turns, such as decreasing radius turns, it may be necessary to apply continuous counter steering to negotiate the turn. This is where your experience may be hiding the true meaning of the term counter-steering from you.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering
Here is a quote from the article. The article specifically separates counter-steering torque from the steering torque required to maintain the lean.
It is also important to distinguish the steering torque necessary to initiate the lean required for a given turn from the sustained steering torque and steering angle necessary to maintain a constant radius and lean angle until it is time to exit the turn.
- The initial steer torque and angle are both opposite the desired turn direction.
- The sustained steer angle is in the same direction as the turn.
- The sustained steer torque required to maintain that steer angle is either with or opposite the turn[7] direction depending on forward speed, bike geometry, and combined bike and rider mass distribution
And here is another quote from the article regarding the steering torque required to maintain a steady lean. Notice in the following quote how the desired lean angle is obtained.
As the desired angle is approached, the front wheel must usually be steered into the turn to maintain that angle or the bike will continue to lean with gravity, increasing in rate, until the side contacts the ground. This process often requires little or no physical effort, because the geometry of the steering system of most bikes is designed in such a way that the front wheel has a strong tendency to steer in the direction of a lean. See Wheel flop at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycl...try#Wheel_flop
The actual torque the rider must apply to the handlebars to maintain a steady-state turn is a complex function of bike geometry, mass distribution, rider position, tire properties, turn radius, and forward speed. At low speeds, the steering torque necessary from the rider is usually negative, that is opposite the direction of the turn, even when the steering angle is in the direction of the turn. At higher speeds, the direction of the necessary input torque often becomes positive, that is in the same direction as the turn.[7][10]
The actual torque the rider must apply to the handlebars to maintain a steady-state turn is a complex function of bike geometry, mass distribution, rider position, tire properties, turn radius, and forward speed. At low speeds, the steering torque necessary from the rider is usually negative, that is opposite the direction of the turn, even when the steering angle is in the direction of the turn. At higher speeds, the direction of the necessary input torque often becomes positive, that is in the same direction as the turn.[7][10]
The perfect corner, I suspect, is a constant radius corner. If you enter a constant radius corner at the right speed and right lean angle you should not have to counter-steer in the corner to adjust your lean angle. You will have to increase the throttle to keep from slowing down in order to maintain the speed. If the angle is right and the speed is right the result is a stable lean. This does not mean you will not have to hold pressure on the bars, you will, but you will not be counter-steering (ie changing your lean angle) You have to hold pressure on the bars just to maintain the current lean angle. To counter-steer you would have to exert additional torque on the bars.
Counter-steering is one of the ways to lean your bike. What I found out today is that the way I lean my bike, by pressing down on the handlebars and leaning forward slightly and shifting my weight slightly in the direction of the lean works for me. When I say down I do not mean directly down, I mean down from the rider position. I find it much easier to do than to try to push the bars forward. That is completely unnatural for my rider position on my bike. Having said that I experimented with pushing the bars forward today and found that when pushing the right bar forward I would twist the throttle at the same time and I did not like that. Also, the bike is too sensitive to small changes when pushing the bar forward. Pushing down is much better way for me on my bike and I suspect that it is adequate for street riding for just about anyone.
Last edited by MikerR1; 10-22-2016 at 07:07 PM.
#836
10-22-2016 | 04:34 PM
Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 6,044
Likes: 333
From: Twisty Mtn roads of Colorado
Maybe the OP will understand counter-steering by use of this demo video with a leaf blower - notice how the operator is pointing the blower to the left but the guy is moving to the right
The following users liked this post:
Max Headflow (10-22-2016)
#838
10-22-2016 | 07:36 PM
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,234
Likes: 561
From: Vegas, baby!
Instead of reading a book.
Last edited by rjg883c; 10-22-2016 at 07:38 PM.
#839
10-22-2016 | 07:52 PM
Grand HDF Member
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,251
Likes: 1,782
From: PA
Motorcycles
Even more so than on a bicycle, deliberately countersteering is essential for safe motorcycle riding, and as a result is a part of the safe riding courses run by the Motorcycle Safety Foundation and the Canada Safety Council. Deliberately countersteering a motorcycle is a much more efficient way to steer than to just lean. At higher speeds the self-balancing property of the bike gets stronger, and more force must be applied to the handlebars.
#840
10-22-2016 | 07:57 PM
Grand HDF Member
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,251
Likes: 1,782
From: PA
Wikipedia:
"The Motorcycle Safety Foundation teaches countersteering to all students in all of its schools, as do all motorcycle racing schools."