Counter-steering
#632
10-21-2016 | 10:26 AM
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From: Texas
Ok, I'll try this one last time. I'll try a comparison here:
Say you're driving a car. You come to a left hand corner. as you approach the corner you slow down and turn the steering wheel to the left to initiate the turn. This is commonly known as steering into the turn. You then hold pressure on the steering wheel so as to cause the car to track through the turn. This is the part that is known as steering through the turn. And it does require input to hold the front tires in position. Just like a bike, if you let go of the steering wheel or relax your grip, the car will straighten out.
Now, the comparison: You're riding a motorcycle. You come to that same left hand turn. You slow your bike (or not, depending on your speed and the corner), then countersteer by pushing the left handlebar forward. This leans you left and begins turning you and the bike into the corner. Once you're set up in the turn, you continue through the turn by holding enough forward pressure on the left grip to hold the required lean in the corner, just like you held counterclockwise pressure on the car's steering wheel to maintain the turn. This is analogous to steering a car through the corner, and is still known as countersteering, just as the act of guiding a car through a corner is known as steering. Even though you aren't actively moving the grip forward (or turning the wheel in the case of the car), the action of holding forward pressure is required to prevent the bike from standing up and straightening out.
So tell me this: If the act of holding a car through a curve is called steering, then why isn't the act of holding a bike through a curve called countersteering? Both actions are passive, in that no actual movement, only pressure, is required for the desired result.
I'll give you this much: you are at least partially correct in that they aren't the same thing. One is countersteering to initiate a turn, the other is countersteering to hold the turn. But they're still both countersteering.
And they both require torque. The difference is, one is active torque (the bars are moved) and one is passive torque (the bars are held in position).
But Mike, feel free to call it whatever you want.
As far as Wikipedia: Pretty much the last place I would go for accurate information on anything. In fact, Wikipedia can be an absolute nightmare of misinformation, depending on who contributed to it.
Say you're driving a car. You come to a left hand corner. as you approach the corner you slow down and turn the steering wheel to the left to initiate the turn. This is commonly known as steering into the turn. You then hold pressure on the steering wheel so as to cause the car to track through the turn. This is the part that is known as steering through the turn. And it does require input to hold the front tires in position. Just like a bike, if you let go of the steering wheel or relax your grip, the car will straighten out.
Now, the comparison: You're riding a motorcycle. You come to that same left hand turn. You slow your bike (or not, depending on your speed and the corner), then countersteer by pushing the left handlebar forward. This leans you left and begins turning you and the bike into the corner. Once you're set up in the turn, you continue through the turn by holding enough forward pressure on the left grip to hold the required lean in the corner, just like you held counterclockwise pressure on the car's steering wheel to maintain the turn. This is analogous to steering a car through the corner, and is still known as countersteering, just as the act of guiding a car through a corner is known as steering. Even though you aren't actively moving the grip forward (or turning the wheel in the case of the car), the action of holding forward pressure is required to prevent the bike from standing up and straightening out.
So tell me this: If the act of holding a car through a curve is called steering, then why isn't the act of holding a bike through a curve called countersteering? Both actions are passive, in that no actual movement, only pressure, is required for the desired result.
I'll give you this much: you are at least partially correct in that they aren't the same thing. One is countersteering to initiate a turn, the other is countersteering to hold the turn. But they're still both countersteering.
And they both require torque. The difference is, one is active torque (the bars are moved) and one is passive torque (the bars are held in position).
But Mike, feel free to call it whatever you want.
As far as Wikipedia: Pretty much the last place I would go for accurate information on anything. In fact, Wikipedia can be an absolute nightmare of misinformation, depending on who contributed to it.
No, it is not counter-steering to hold the turn, because if you look at the front wheel when you are holding the pressure you will see that the front wheel IS NOT pointed in the opposite direction to the turn. It is steering torque to maintain the lean angle.
#633
10-21-2016 | 10:27 AM
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From: San Quirino, Italy
He is obviously trolling...He started this thread with a ridiculous question about pressing down on his bars to counter-steer and now he is trying to school us on the complex physics behind the the idea...How can he be an expert on the physics aspect of it when he isn't smart enough to grasp the basic idea???
#634
10-21-2016 | 10:28 AM
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Posts: 11,373
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From: Clearwater, Idaho
I did not create the definition of counter steering. I am just telling you what it is.
No, it is not counter-steering to hold the turn, because if you look at the front wheel when you are holding the pressure you will see that the front wheel IS NOT pointed in the opposite direction to the turn. It is steering torque to maintain the lean angle.
No, it is not counter-steering to hold the turn, because if you look at the front wheel when you are holding the pressure you will see that the front wheel IS NOT pointed in the opposite direction to the turn. It is steering torque to maintain the lean angle.
#635
10-21-2016 | 10:31 AM
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From: Texas
He is obviously trolling...He started this thread with a ridiculous question about pressing down on his bars to counter-steer and now he is trying to school us on the complex physics behind the the idea...How can he be an expert on the physics aspect of it when he isn't smart enough to grasp the basic idea???
#637
10-21-2016 | 10:40 AM
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Joined: Mar 2016
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From: Clearwater, Idaho
I did not create the definition of counter steering. I am just telling you what it is.
No, it is not counter-steering to hold the turn, because if you look at the front wheel when you are holding the pressure you will see that the front wheel IS NOT pointed in the opposite direction to the turn. It is steering torque to maintain the lean angle.
No, it is not counter-steering to hold the turn, because if you look at the front wheel when you are holding the pressure you will see that the front wheel IS NOT pointed in the opposite direction to the turn. It is steering torque to maintain the lean angle.
By the way, you never did tell us what bike you ride.
That's it. I'm gonna go find another brick wall to bang my head against.
Last edited by martinj; 10-21-2016 at 10:43 AM.
#638
10-21-2016 | 10:48 AM
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From: Texas
And since it's steering torque, that means you're steering, right? and since you're pushing in the opposite direction of the turn in order to steer, that makes it countersteering, right? Like I said, you can call it whatever you want. But it's still, in effect, countersteering.
That's it. I'm gonna go find another brick wall to bang my head against.
That's it. I'm gonna go find another brick wall to bang my head against.
Here is an example
#639
10-21-2016 | 10:49 AM
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Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,251
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From: PA
The difference between you and I is that I learned from more experienced riders, and from riding myself. You learned from a Wikipedia diagram you found in the past week, which you've posted about 50 times. It's useful for introducing a new rider to some of the concepts and principles involved in taking a curve, and that's about it. But it supports your narrow viewpoint, so you keep posting it, while dismissing anything else that is contrary to it. It reminds me of a book I had when I was a kid that taught how to play basketball. You could memorize that book and recite it backwards, but still not be able to dribble a ball or make a lay up. Someone like you would read that book and then criticize Michael Jordan because he's doing it wrong, and no one could convince you otherwise.
Another difference between you and I is that I can admit when I'm wrong. I've done so on these forums, because I value the wisdom of my fellow riders. I stand by what I've said in this thread on the topic of countersteering, not because I read it it somewhere, but because I have experienced it, demonstrated it, and lived it. I'm agreement with virtually everyone else here who has tried in vain to help you.
What you've posted here, on the other hand, has been all over the map. You started out confused about the meaning of words, like "press." Confused about words like "forward" vs. "down." For days you doggedly insisted there's no need to maintain pressure on the bar in a curve, and after that was repeatedly debunked, you seem to accept that, but insist it's not called countersteering. Stuck on words again.
Every time your assertions have been proved wrong, you dismiss, deflect and pivot to something else.
Last edited by Bluesrider.df; 10-22-2016 at 08:57 PM.
#640
10-21-2016 | 10:50 AM
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From: Clearwater, Idaho
What bike did you say you ride again?
Last edited by martinj; 10-21-2016 at 10:52 AM. Reason: punctiuation and delete unneeded redundant photo