Counter-steering
#601
10-21-2016 | 09:23 AM
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From: Nowhere
There are opposing forces at work. Counter-steering is one of them. I am no physicist, so I am not qualified to explain it, so I won't try. The keyword though is "forces", in the plural. So, counter-steering is not the only force that helps you negotiate a turn, another is gravity. If you lean the bike over far enough, gravity, combined with your weight and the center of gravity overcome the forces that are trying to straighten the bike back up and you can stop applying counter-steering force. This is what a "stable lean" is; on in other words, equilibrium.
The thing is though... in the real world? Yea. You know, that place where people actually live and ride motorcycles in? Yea. That place.
A stable lean almost never happens. For it to happen, everything has to be in perfect harmony: speed, turn radius, etc etc etc. In the real world, things are never, ever, that convenient and if you do achieve a "stable lean", it is going to be very temporary.
#602
10-21-2016 | 09:29 AM
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From: Vegas, baby!
Keith,
I explained 'counter steering' to him in post #121, even mentioned 'steering'. Purely in an effort to help anyone that is reading this thread hoping to learn something. But since Mike is obviously not a rider, or is perhaps unfortunate enough to need this nonsensical thread to have fun, I have stopped bothering.
I explained 'counter steering' to him in post #121, even mentioned 'steering'. Purely in an effort to help anyone that is reading this thread hoping to learn something. But since Mike is obviously not a rider, or is perhaps unfortunate enough to need this nonsensical thread to have fun, I have stopped bothering.
#603
10-21-2016 | 09:37 AM
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From: Nowhere
A few other thoughts before I have to boogey...
- Accelerating does not load up the suspension, it unloads the suspension. Braking loads up the suspension.
- Loading and unloading the suspension alters the bike's geometry, which will then also alter the relationship between lean angle and the turn radius. This is why braking in a turn is so dangerous (aside from the possibility of losing traction from the additional forces created by decelerating).
- Using the rear brake in slow speed maneuvers helps to regulate speed; using the throttle alone is kind of hard to do.
- Accelerating means to increase speed, not maintain it, or keep it the same.
- And finally... if you accelerate in a turn, it will increase the forces that tend to straighten up the bike, which will then increase the turn radius. Without applied counter-steering force, the turn radius will increase to infinity (go straight ahead). If counter-steering is being applied, but not changed, the turn radius will increase up to the point where equilibrium is achieved again. But, even slight counter-steering pressure will alter the lean angle, so the turn radius will never reach infinity (go straight ahead) as long as some counter-steering pressure is being applied. Most riders will using counter-counter-steering to straighten the bike back up on sweepers (speed does not change), while most riders will use acceleration and removing counter-steering pressure in curves where they had to slow down to negotiate (unless they are needing to "flick" the bike over for the next turn).
Good luck. Have fun. And MikeR1... do everyone a favor and never, ever, under any circumstance, ride a motorcycle on public roads.
Thank you!
- Accelerating does not load up the suspension, it unloads the suspension. Braking loads up the suspension.
- Loading and unloading the suspension alters the bike's geometry, which will then also alter the relationship between lean angle and the turn radius. This is why braking in a turn is so dangerous (aside from the possibility of losing traction from the additional forces created by decelerating).
- Using the rear brake in slow speed maneuvers helps to regulate speed; using the throttle alone is kind of hard to do.
- Accelerating means to increase speed, not maintain it, or keep it the same.
- And finally... if you accelerate in a turn, it will increase the forces that tend to straighten up the bike, which will then increase the turn radius. Without applied counter-steering force, the turn radius will increase to infinity (go straight ahead). If counter-steering is being applied, but not changed, the turn radius will increase up to the point where equilibrium is achieved again. But, even slight counter-steering pressure will alter the lean angle, so the turn radius will never reach infinity (go straight ahead) as long as some counter-steering pressure is being applied. Most riders will using counter-counter-steering to straighten the bike back up on sweepers (speed does not change), while most riders will use acceleration and removing counter-steering pressure in curves where they had to slow down to negotiate (unless they are needing to "flick" the bike over for the next turn).
Good luck. Have fun. And MikeR1... do everyone a favor and never, ever, under any circumstance, ride a motorcycle on public roads.
Thank you!
#604
10-21-2016 | 09:37 AM
Banned
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From: Nowhere
Keith,
I explained 'counter steering' to him in post #121, even mentioned 'steering'. Purely in an effort to help anyone that is reading this thread hoping to learn something. But since Mike is obviously not a rider, or is perhaps unfortunate enough to need this nonsensical thread to have fun, I have stopped bothering.
I explained 'counter steering' to him in post #121, even mentioned 'steering'. Purely in an effort to help anyone that is reading this thread hoping to learn something. But since Mike is obviously not a rider, or is perhaps unfortunate enough to need this nonsensical thread to have fun, I have stopped bothering.
#605
10-21-2016 | 09:37 AM
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From: Texas
Read it again. I'll wait........................
Ok. All of the words are important, so let me walk it through for you.
Counter-steering =
1. "steering torque" - Correct. Pushing forward on the handlebars is applying torque to the steering head. This force is in opposition to the centripetal force created by the rotating mass that is the front wheel. Go back to your video on the spinning top or wheel or whatever it was. The opposite reaction to this is the bike leans in the direction of the applied torque on the steering head. This is why it is called "counter" steering: the bike leans (and turns) in the opposite direction of the applied force. In fact, it is not "steering" at all. What the rider is doing is manipulating the lean angle of the bike.
2. "required" - This is an important word. What it means is that without counter-steering, you cannot alter the lean angle of the bike. This is not entirely true, but the faster the front wheel is rotating the more powerful the centripetal force. What this means is that, the faster you are going, the less effective shifting your weight becomes. In fact, at riding speeds and by "riding", I mean not in your drive way or parking lot, it becomes incredibly unsafe to even try and change the lean angle of a motorcycle by shifting your weight alone. In fact, if you only know how to change the lean angle with your weight and do not know how to counter-steer... you will end up in a ditch. Not might. Not maybe. Not possibly. You will. That is the importance of the meaning of words.
3. "to maintain" - Now, this is where your understanding of the English language seems to break down. This phrase means the same as "to keep the same". Keep this in mind.
4. "the lean angle" - The lean angle is the degrees of rotation from the perfectly vertical. So, if you imagine the motorcycle is like the hand on a clock, at 12:00, the bike has a lean angle of 0 degrees. At this angle, the turn radius of the motorcycle is also 0 (the bike goes straight ahead). As you lean the motorcycle over, the degrees increase. So, at 1:00, the lean angle is something like 10 degrees (I don't know for sure, but something like that). At 3:00 the bike is at 90 degrees and is laying on the ground. Get it? Good. So, the point is... as you increase the lean angle degrees, you are also reducing the turn radius of the motorcycle. Going straight ahead, the turn radius is infinite (going straight ahead) and at a 10 degree angle, the turn radius is like 50 feet (I don't know for sure, so just for an example). Get it? Good. In brief... as the lean angle increases, the turning radius decreases.
Ok. So, let's put it all together... "In order to negotiate a turn, the rider has to keep the steering torque the same." (This assumes the turn radius does not change.) That sentence is exactly the same as the one you quoted. Now, let's compare that to what you concluded: "If the lean angle is not changing you are not counter-steering."
That sentence is inconsistent with the sentence you quoted.
The lean angle does not need to be changing in order for it to be counter-steering: it can also be used to keep the lean angle the same. This little revelation ought to be an "aha!" moment for you. It is also a contradiction of the idea that counter-steering is "momentary" or to the concept that a "stable lean" is the only way to negotiate a turn.
In my next post... I will add some confusion though.
Ok. All of the words are important, so let me walk it through for you.
Counter-steering =
1. "steering torque" - Correct. Pushing forward on the handlebars is applying torque to the steering head. This force is in opposition to the centripetal force created by the rotating mass that is the front wheel. Go back to your video on the spinning top or wheel or whatever it was. The opposite reaction to this is the bike leans in the direction of the applied torque on the steering head. This is why it is called "counter" steering: the bike leans (and turns) in the opposite direction of the applied force. In fact, it is not "steering" at all. What the rider is doing is manipulating the lean angle of the bike.
2. "required" - This is an important word. What it means is that without counter-steering, you cannot alter the lean angle of the bike. This is not entirely true, but the faster the front wheel is rotating the more powerful the centripetal force. What this means is that, the faster you are going, the less effective shifting your weight becomes. In fact, at riding speeds and by "riding", I mean not in your drive way or parking lot, it becomes incredibly unsafe to even try and change the lean angle of a motorcycle by shifting your weight alone. In fact, if you only know how to change the lean angle with your weight and do not know how to counter-steer... you will end up in a ditch. Not might. Not maybe. Not possibly. You will. That is the importance of the meaning of words.
3. "to maintain" - Now, this is where your understanding of the English language seems to break down. This phrase means the same as "to keep the same". Keep this in mind.
4. "the lean angle" - The lean angle is the degrees of rotation from the perfectly vertical. So, if you imagine the motorcycle is like the hand on a clock, at 12:00, the bike has a lean angle of 0 degrees. At this angle, the turn radius of the motorcycle is also 0 (the bike goes straight ahead). As you lean the motorcycle over, the degrees increase. So, at 1:00, the lean angle is something like 10 degrees (I don't know for sure, but something like that). At 3:00 the bike is at 90 degrees and is laying on the ground. Get it? Good. So, the point is... as you increase the lean angle degrees, you are also reducing the turn radius of the motorcycle. Going straight ahead, the turn radius is infinite (going straight ahead) and at a 10 degree angle, the turn radius is like 50 feet (I don't know for sure, so just for an example). Get it? Good. In brief... as the lean angle increases, the turning radius decreases.
Ok. So, let's put it all together... "In order to negotiate a turn, the rider has to keep the steering torque the same." (This assumes the turn radius does not change.) That sentence is exactly the same as the one you quoted. Now, let's compare that to what you concluded: "If the lean angle is not changing you are not counter-steering."
That sentence is inconsistent with the sentence you quoted.
The lean angle does not need to be changing in order for it to be counter-steering: it can also be used to keep the lean angle the same. This little revelation ought to be an "aha!" moment for you. It is also a contradiction of the idea that counter-steering is "momentary" or to the concept that a "stable lean" is the only way to negotiate a turn.
In my next post... I will add some confusion though.
The article is clear Keith, very clear.
Read the article. It is very clear that there is a distinction between counter-steering and the steering torque required to maintain the lean angle.
And while you are reading the article, look at the diagram that goes with it. It does not indicate that counter-steering is happening in the turn. What is required there is the steering torque required to maintain the angle. That is what you all call "pressure on the inside bar". If your analysis was true the diagram would show counter-steering during the turn.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering
This diagram was so helpful in getting to the bottom of what is and what is not counter steering.
Before any of you all say anything, anymore, about what is and what is not counter-steering read this wikileak article
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering
Last edited by MikerR1; 10-21-2016 at 09:42 AM.
#606
10-21-2016 | 09:40 AM
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From: Texas
Keith,
I explained 'counter steering' to him in post #121, even mentioned 'steering'. Purely in an effort to help anyone that is reading this thread hoping to learn something. But since Mike is obviously not a rider, or is perhaps unfortunate enough to need this nonsensical thread to have fun, I have stopped bothering.
I explained 'counter steering' to him in post #121, even mentioned 'steering'. Purely in an effort to help anyone that is reading this thread hoping to learn something. But since Mike is obviously not a rider, or is perhaps unfortunate enough to need this nonsensical thread to have fun, I have stopped bothering.
Read the wikileaks article
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering
Last edited by MikerR1; 10-21-2016 at 09:43 AM.
#607
10-21-2016 | 09:47 AM
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Joined: Feb 2006
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From: Vegas, baby!
Actually you didn't explain it correctly. You, just like all the others, said that the pressure you maintain on the inside bars during the turn was counter steering. IT IS NOT. It is the steering torque required to maintain the lean angle. If the lean angle is not changing you are not counter steering. (This does not mean that counter-steering is the only way to change the lean angle)
Read the wikileaks article
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering
Read the wikileaks article
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering
When I was in college, learning how to write computer software I read books about how to do things. And the 'words' made sense. Then I began actually writing computer programs in the 'real world' and discovered that while the 'words' I read were helpful, sometimes things were different in actual practice. Of course possible programming differences didn't have as serious consequences as are possible while riding a motorcycle.
Last edited by rjg883c; 10-21-2016 at 09:59 AM.
#608
10-21-2016 | 09:48 AM
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From: Nowhere
Let's be clear about something... it is not an analysis.
It is me telling you how it actually works, in terms that you seem to be familiar with, though I am now beginning to believe that English is not your first language and are therefore having trouble understanding the meaning of the words.
When you say I am wrong, what you are really saying is that I am a liar. Because, what I wrote is exactly what I actually do when I ride and I have been riding for 40 years. So, let's put this into perspective...
You, someone who obviously has zero real world riding experience; is calling someone with 40 years of riding experience a liar.
I did not even bother to read the rest of your post, because no doubt it is covering topics that I have already covered more than once. At this point, you are not just being stubborn.
It is me telling you how it actually works, in terms that you seem to be familiar with, though I am now beginning to believe that English is not your first language and are therefore having trouble understanding the meaning of the words.
When you say I am wrong, what you are really saying is that I am a liar. Because, what I wrote is exactly what I actually do when I ride and I have been riding for 40 years. So, let's put this into perspective...
You, someone who obviously has zero real world riding experience; is calling someone with 40 years of riding experience a liar.
I did not even bother to read the rest of your post, because no doubt it is covering topics that I have already covered more than once. At this point, you are not just being stubborn.
#609
10-21-2016 | 09:54 AM
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From: PNW
You, someone who obviously has zero real world riding experience; is calling someone with 40 years of riding experience a liar.
I did not even bother to read the rest of your post, because no doubt it is covering topics that I have already covered more than once. At this point, you are not just being stubborn.
I did not even bother to read the rest of your post, because no doubt it is covering topics that I have already covered more than once. At this point, you are not just being stubborn.
I just hate to see decent people throw pearls of wisdom to this swine.
And stubborn is not the adjective I would use to describe the OP. But I've already received one warning on profanity this month, so I'll leave it to the imagination of the reader. But "fool" is definitely a safe one.
Now what do you say we all hijack this thread and make it into something of value? What do you guys want to talk about?
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#610
10-21-2016 | 09:56 AM
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From: Texas
Words. Does it really matter " pressure you maintain on the inside bars during the turn was counter steering. IT IS NOT"? Knowing what to do if a change of direction is needed, NOW, is what really matters. Don't you agree, ride, or have any pleasurable activity in your life?