OKMICK, You are quoting a story put out in 2008 at the beginning of the sub-prime and deep sub-prime meltdown. I suspect that several years into that crappy portfolio of loans that the real numbers were a heck of a lot worse than what Harley was touting to their investors. Like yourself, I like to run on data and some of the 40% plus was based on some dealer hearsay. I will see if I can come up with some more solid numbers than either you or I have put forth that is relevant for the current and more recent past situations.

 

I believe that would be the right thing to do, Capt Bob.

 

That holds true if you have the will and desire to know your bike, and can physically do it. But many or today's "riders" do not. Just like the breed that don't know how to do an oil change. They are lazy and to a point feel they don't HAVE to get their hands dirty.
Which of course makes the moco as popular as it is. I don't think a bike needs to be ten years old either. When the status principle wears off you can find a non used bike that collects dust can be had at a discount. But that's splitting hairs.

 

You can start with the 2015 financial statement


http://www.marketwatch.com/investing...HOG/financials

 

OKMICK, I am not a financier. The 40% number was gleaned from a class action suit http://securities.stanford.edu/filin...r01c_05547.pdf
that touted how the MOCO had created a credit crunch and serious devaluation of the stock. I had thought about buying a bunch of Harley stock recently when it was in the mid to upper 30's but thought better of it with all of the crazy shenanigans that are alleged to have happened with the MOCO. I am not interested in getting into a pissing contest on financial statements, etc. because I have no expertise and frankly find that very boring as I am not an accounting or lawyer type. However, I do know that the standard practices of marching each and every customer through the F&I gauntlet is something that I hoped people would understand in terms of how it might impact their financial well being and how this MSRP line of BS will self-extinguish if people can get a sense of some of the pitfalls. No more or no less. If you want to fight on a wits basis, let's do it on something that I happen to be an expert on and even then, I just retired last week for what is likely my final work gig and really don't give a ****!

 

OK the issue. Most people here have been around the block more than a few times. They can shop for the best financing if they choose to, make the best deal they can on the motorcycle they want and and if they aren't presented with a deal that they can live with they can take what usually amounts to a short ride to another dealership and deal with them.

The difference between a 5% interest rate and a 7% interest rate on a $20,000.00 loan with 60 month term is $19.00 a month. Certainly not an amount that will bankrupt most people here. I would venture to guess that most will shop for the best rate before going in. Those that don't probably don't care that much.

The last time I bought a new car I told the F&I guy that if he could do 2.75% I'll let him, (me controlling the transaction) otherwise I'll get the financing myself. He grumbled and did 2.75%.

 

I have no interest in any pissing contest. You posted that '40% of Harley loans are in default' (paraphrasing) and I simply want to know where ya come up with that number. I will look at the link you posted and by god if I am wrong you will be the first person I make aware of that.

 

So far Bob, I see a suit on behalf of a pension fund that apparently has funds invested in Harley and its operations. Indeed, there is a 40% reference early on, pg. 3.

...annualized credit losses on a managed portfolio basis grew during the first quarter of 2005 by almost 40%...Yep, apparently from .77 to 1.07. I won't mention your reference to 'prior to the bubble of 2008' since that would be unfair.



pg.5 ... Annualized credit loses (spelling error in report) on a managed portfolio basis increased to 1.07% from .77%

 

National debt isn't privately held debt man, it's the money uncle sugar has borrowed against future GDP to fund things they want but can't afford. Has nothing to do with Harley financing.

Never in my life have I seen so many people so interested in how others spend their money than on a Harley site. Good grief, mind your own business and let others mind theirs just flat out disappeared with the invention of the internet.

 

slodsm, This is a tough crowd on this forum at times. I mentioned that I bought a 2005 Road King that had been sitting for most of the past 6 years with 500 miles on newly changed tires and most of the posts were attacking my question about whether or not I should keep or discard the tires see thread: https://www.hdforums.com/forum/wheel...009-tires.html
Most people assumed that I was a dumbass and that anybody with sense should know that you needed to discard the tires and move on to another subject. Well, one hospitable person from New Zealand suggested that I contact Dunlop directly to find out what the real answer was. When I did this, it turned out that most of the posts recommending discarding the tires based on their opinions were flat out wrong when an expert representative from the company advised that there was no reliable data about motorcycle tire longevity that would suggest a particular course of action based solely on time of manufacture. There is not necessarily a parallel in this thread but to deny that we are all sort of intertwined financially in the decisions that the MOCO, dealers and consumers make would be equally naïve. My intention was to help those folks that have the ears or sense to hear the argument about a practice (quasi usurious rates from a subset of greedy F&I folks) that has hurt many people and actually wrecked some families due to financial crunches. If this pisses people off, then oh well? I don't know what the Internet is for but to communicate ideas and thoughts that hopefully advance our life situations. I really don't feel like fighting for these causes because I have fought for a lot of causes most of my life and frankly am getting more ambivalent about fighting.


Being 67 and having grown up with the Internet and pre-Internet (Plato at the U of I) and other computer work, I realize that it is a challenge to sort out the chaff from the wheat when it comes to posts. I also realize that I have learned a hell of a lot from various threads over the years in a variety of different forums and so do not uniformly throw out all of the conclusions and suggestions that people come up with.