air cooled vs water
#11
05-16-2007, 02:56 PM
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RE: air cooled vs water
ORIGINAL: ZD
I'm not sure I quite agree or even understand why liquid cooled would always be better than air cooled. Air cooling works very well in all kinds of environments. It's much less complicated component wise.
Gets plenty hot 'round these parts... The only place hotter than Phoenix would probably be Death Valley. We gots LOTS of two-wheelers in the Valley of the Sun.
ORIGINAL: Sam
Water cooled is always better than air cooled,that's just fact.But luckily for all us cranky old sh*ts, who love our air cooled bikes, Harley realizes who their customers are and what they want.
Water cooled is always better than air cooled,that's just fact.But luckily for all us cranky old sh*ts, who love our air cooled bikes, Harley realizes who their customers are and what they want.
Gets plenty hot 'round these parts... The only place hotter than Phoenix would probably be Death Valley. We gots LOTS of two-wheelers in the Valley of the Sun.
A water cooled bike will be more efficient over all the temperature range. Why?If you can make the engine temp a very narrow range it's gonna be much easier to tune the engine to operate in that range. If the engine temp varies considerably more, tuning it becomes more difficult. Usually that will mean the tuning process contains more compromises, especially at the extremes, hot or cold. Somewhere there will be a trade-off betweeen the complexity of the required equipment to meet the tuning parameters and the cost the design engineer is constrained by.
#12
05-16-2007, 03:01 PM
RE: air cooled vs water
Rant on:
Will you just let it F&ckin' die already. Regardless of what gets posted on some internet forums the overwhelming majority of those that ride and buy H-D want Aircooled bikes. Radiators are ugly no matter where you try to hide them on a bike and water cooled bikes are far from perfect. I've seen too many to count on the side of the road in NYC in the middle of the summer pissing antifreeze all over the road. And that's a fact.
If you want a Water cooled bike, There are lots of rides out there from a zillion mfgs, incluiding cheap Chineese knockoffs that are avialble and they'll work just fine.
I've replaced enough water pumps, thremostats, gunked up radiators and split radiator hoses in my life to truly appreciate the simplicity of a carbed EVO.
I'll use my Code scanner to deal with my truck and Jeep to troubleshoot the FI when needed and deal with the added complexity of water cooling for an auto as well. When it comes to H-D, I'd rather jet the carb, install a good cam, tweak the ignition and thow on a set of pipes and then not worry about the damn thing and just ride it. It's alot easier than dealing with a Rice grinder's plastic body panel removal, shim under bucket valve adjustments every 10k, and mainitaining a properly functioing water cooling system.
Rant off:
Will you just let it F&ckin' die already. Regardless of what gets posted on some internet forums the overwhelming majority of those that ride and buy H-D want Aircooled bikes. Radiators are ugly no matter where you try to hide them on a bike and water cooled bikes are far from perfect. I've seen too many to count on the side of the road in NYC in the middle of the summer pissing antifreeze all over the road. And that's a fact.
If you want a Water cooled bike, There are lots of rides out there from a zillion mfgs, incluiding cheap Chineese knockoffs that are avialble and they'll work just fine.
I've replaced enough water pumps, thremostats, gunked up radiators and split radiator hoses in my life to truly appreciate the simplicity of a carbed EVO.
I'll use my Code scanner to deal with my truck and Jeep to troubleshoot the FI when needed and deal with the added complexity of water cooling for an auto as well. When it comes to H-D, I'd rather jet the carb, install a good cam, tweak the ignition and thow on a set of pipes and then not worry about the damn thing and just ride it. It's alot easier than dealing with a Rice grinder's plastic body panel removal, shim under bucket valve adjustments every 10k, and mainitaining a properly functioing water cooling system.
Rant off:
#13
05-16-2007, 03:05 PM
RE: air cooled vs water
ORIGINAL: ceduby
I like the idea of keeping it simple. water cooled = more maintenance and more things to go wrong. 100 plus years of air cooled motors. Proof enough??
I like the idea of keeping it simple. water cooled = more maintenance and more things to go wrong. 100 plus years of air cooled motors. Proof enough??
#14
05-16-2007, 03:17 PM
RE: air cooled vs water
ORIGINAL: pococj
Guess it would depend on what the definition of "better" is.
A water cooled bike will be more efficient over all the temperature range. Why?If you can make the engine temp a very narrow range it's gonna be much easier to tune the engine to operate in that range. If the engine temp varies considerably more, tuning it becomes more difficult. Usually that will mean the tuning process contains more compromises, especially at the extremes, hot or cold. Somewhere there will be a trade-off betweeen the complexity of the required equipment to meet the tuning parameters and the cost the design engineer is constrained by.
ORIGINAL: ZD
I'm not sure I quite agree or even understand why liquid cooled would always be better than air cooled. Air cooling works very well in all kinds of environments. It's much less complicated component wise.
Gets plenty hot 'round these parts... The only place hotter than Phoenix would probably be Death Valley. We gots LOTS of two-wheelers in the Valley of the Sun.
ORIGINAL: Sam
Water cooled is always better than air cooled,that's just fact.But luckily for all us cranky old sh*ts, who love our air cooled bikes, Harley realizes who their customers are and what they want.
Water cooled is always better than air cooled,that's just fact.But luckily for all us cranky old sh*ts, who love our air cooled bikes, Harley realizes who their customers are and what they want.
Gets plenty hot 'round these parts... The only place hotter than Phoenix would probably be Death Valley. We gots LOTS of two-wheelers in the Valley of the Sun.
A water cooled bike will be more efficient over all the temperature range. Why?If you can make the engine temp a very narrow range it's gonna be much easier to tune the engine to operate in that range. If the engine temp varies considerably more, tuning it becomes more difficult. Usually that will mean the tuning process contains more compromises, especially at the extremes, hot or cold. Somewhere there will be a trade-off betweeen the complexity of the required equipment to meet the tuning parameters and the cost the design engineer is constrained by.
I guess I'dhave to argue that until emission standards and/or fuel economy requirements becomeridiculous, the air-cooled engine still wins over liquid-cooledin terms of simplicity and overall cost to produce.Hence, I thinkair-cooledwill prevail for some time tocome.
BTW - Now that I've said that, they'll probably introduce the new Liquid Cooled Harley line in 08 or 09!I've always been a day late & a dollar short.
#15
05-16-2007, 03:30 PM
RE: air cooled vs water
Another note on liquid cooled engines. With todays emission regulations they are setup to run hotter than ever, and I mean 210-220 degrees. So when these emissions regulations filters down to motorcyclesI don't think there's any advantage over air cooled engines.
My Evo runs a lot cooler than that.
MikeyB
My Evo runs a lot cooler than that.
MikeyB
#16
05-16-2007, 03:37 PM
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RE: air cooled vs water
Showerhead! That's hilarious. I've never heard it called that before.... LOL
ORIGINAL: Steeltown
...the showerhead(VRod) is the only Harley with that option.
...the showerhead(VRod) is the only Harley with that option.
#17
05-16-2007, 03:48 PM
RE: air cooled vs water
It's all about laying our treasure on the altar of air quality. Right or wrong, the Feds decided long ago that gas mileage and running efficiency count for nothing.
#18
05-16-2007, 04:03 PM
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RE: air cooled vs water
Folks,
The main issue is heat and how to dissipate it. Harley utilizes 2 methods - Via AIR or WATER.
With AIR -if theheatsink is large enough - the engine can run at idle indefinately without the engine overheating.
With WATER - the heat from the engine is transferred to the water/antifreeze and then moved to a radiator (which is a heatsink) - air has to pass through the fins of the radiator in order to cool down the liquid.
Keep this in mind - the internal temperature of any engine can reach 500F easily. The hottest air temperature in the US is130F. There is a big difference between those two numbers.
AIR or WATER - both have the same effect. If both systems are maintained properly.As stated above, water cooled systems have many more componentsworking for proper operation - increasing the probability of something going wrong.
Due to thermal breakdown of oil - I would probably install an oil cooler on the front tubes of the scoot (In warmer weather climates.....) but not necessarily needed.
JMHO,
Nick
The main issue is heat and how to dissipate it. Harley utilizes 2 methods - Via AIR or WATER.
With AIR -if theheatsink is large enough - the engine can run at idle indefinately without the engine overheating.
With WATER - the heat from the engine is transferred to the water/antifreeze and then moved to a radiator (which is a heatsink) - air has to pass through the fins of the radiator in order to cool down the liquid.
Keep this in mind - the internal temperature of any engine can reach 500F easily. The hottest air temperature in the US is130F. There is a big difference between those two numbers.
AIR or WATER - both have the same effect. If both systems are maintained properly.As stated above, water cooled systems have many more componentsworking for proper operation - increasing the probability of something going wrong.
Due to thermal breakdown of oil - I would probably install an oil cooler on the front tubes of the scoot (In warmer weather climates.....) but not necessarily needed.
JMHO,
Nick
#19
05-16-2007, 04:28 PM
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#20
05-16-2007, 06:04 PM
RE: air cooled vs water
With WATER - the heat from the engine is transferred to the water/antifreeze and then moved to a radiator (which is a heatsink) - air has to pass through the fins of the radiator in order to cool down the liquid.
iam not a bike expert iam not even sure if bikes with water cooling have a thermatic fan that kicks in when you are standing still,
but if the bike dosnt have a thermatic fan to blow air through the radiator when the bike is still then wouldnt it bethe same as an air cooled bike??
iam not a bike expert iam not even sure if bikes with water cooling have a thermatic fan that kicks in when you are standing still,
but if the bike dosnt have a thermatic fan to blow air through the radiator when the bike is still then wouldnt it bethe same as an air cooled bike??