....any input on the Catalytic equipped EPA pipes that come with the 103 ci Stage II kit that comes with the touring mufflers but doesn`t include the air intake? I understand they`re CVO mufflers, and you can get the Stage II kit with the mufflers for $900 or with the air intake also for $900. Actually in the catalogue I was sure they said $1070 but that may have had mufflers AND air intake which works out to about the same as a $900 muffler-equipped kit and a separate $150 air intake. Anyway they outfitted me with the $900 version with the mufflers presumably because it`s a good bargain. Specifically, if air intake`s worth about $150 that means I`m getting the two CVO mufflers (works of art actually, though not much louder than stock) for about $150 or an amazing $75 each. What irritated me was that I asked for SE one piece performance slipons due to more flow and sound. However they didn`t listen and just got me the ones in the kit. He said the ones I asked for were illegal, though then so are RUSH, Rinehart`s and ANYthing but stock or these CVO type. He said he gets a ticket per year and would I like that? Well no, but really do people touring with SE pipes get that many tickets for noise or perhaps simply not being EPA and therefore more polluting with no CAT`s? I heard CVO mufflers may not be very loud, BUT are high flow and high performance because they`re large volume. They also look fantastic I must say, with plain straight cut (no slash up or down) caps on the end. Very classy. And no Screamin Eagle insignia which I expected, and actually that is more factory looking too. I would have preferred a louder sound but they do seem very throaty, and if I hadn`t known I didn`t get what I asked for, I would have been very happy with the sound. He did say they`d get about 10% louder when broken in, but already when new they`re very nice. Just not very loud. But maybe for long distance touring with a possibly easily annoyed passenger (wife) and listening to her and music, he protected me from myself and my desire to hear cool loud exhaust sounds. I heard it gets annoying after awhile, and this is a touring bike that I literally cross the continent on.

Thoughts?

 

When my street bob was stockish(stage 1) 100kms/hr was barely attainable in 6th. It was definitely lugging the motor. Now at 106 I tested it as far as mileage in 5th at 100 and 6th at 100 and believe it or not my mileage was better in 5th so I don't even bother with 6th until at least 110.
The bike runs better at higher rpms,it has more oil pressure and just seems happier there.
I also started on metrics,yamaha's,so these monster twins are new to me as far as learning about their "sweet spot" is.
This bike seems happiest at no less than 2600 for cruising,and gets it's best mileage between 2600 and 3200.
Your results may vary

 

You just made my night.....it contradicts what Harley Canada and one dealer service manager said, which was that 6th is meant to improve fuel economy at legal speeds such as 100 kph, but is based on real-world comparisons. That`s exactly the test I would have done if I wasn`t so paranoid of damaging my engine in 6th while doing it! Most people would be paranoid after a mechanic telling you repeatedly that you wrecked your engine that way and it`s not Harley`s fault (yes, even if it tells me in Harley`s manual that it`s okay and is in fact recommended to run 6th at 100 kph). Anyway now I can just run it in 5th like the mechanic/owner told me, enjoy the superior sound and feel of an engine closer to it`s torque peak and that is more responsive to throttle inputs for passing or accelerating without having to downshift, AND not feel like I`m wasting money on gas getting 35 mpg instead of 43 mpg (or whatever).

Thanks!

 

The only time my bike will see 6th at 60mph is running downhill. Most of the time I use 6th at 70mph+ dropping to 5th on hills. Also with all the detonation you talk about don't you think you were running very lean & that could have added too or caused the problems? Also 1.5 quarts of oil per oil change sounds like a problem. My 2 bikes don't burn any. Just a thought.

 

Back in the original post it was mentioned that the crank assembly was replaced because the connecting rods big end was blued. I'm not sure that bluing was correctly diagnosed and replacement was necessary. I'm not saying replacement wasn't necessary, only saying that bluing by itself does not necessarily warrant replacement in a Twin cam HD.

Let me also state that the information I'm providing here doesn't come from first-hand knowledge or personal experience, but rather from technical research.

In Donny Petersen's book, Donny's Unauthorized Technical Guide To Harley Davidson 1936-2008, Volume I: The Twin Cam; Donny describes a heat treating process that is performed to the connecting rod big ends of Twin Cam Harleys. This is done because the bearing surface of the connecting rods is the parent material of the rods themselves. There is no hardened bearing race pressed in the rod as other earlier HDs. This hardening process results in the blue coloration of the connecting rods at the big end.

In earlier HDs, if you saw a blued connecting rod big end, you could diagnose that as the rod being overheated during operation. On Twin Cam connecting rods you cannot make that same diagnosis because of the heat treatment process during manufacture and the resultant bluing that exists straight from the factory.

Just thought I'd share this info with you guys. Take it for what it's worth.

And back to the original question... 100kph in 6th gear? This is only my opinion but I think running at that speed in 6th gear all day long is going to result in lugging somewhere during the day. It maybe ok on straight, level, no headwind stretches, but that speed in 6th gear has to be too low an rpm for many of the conditions you will encounter. Generally speaking, I don't use 6th gear under about 75 mph. I like the rpm up in the 2500-3000 + range for 6th gear cruising.

 

I'd say your blown up engine speaks for itself and answered your question before you wrote it.
Put the later model lower gearing sprockets on so you are revving that bit higher in sixth is waht I would do.

 

Yes I thought that right up to hearing my primary case was broken and a bearing therein too, plus the big end of the conn rods blue......didn`t think detonation would do all that. I think the 1.5 quarts of oil, which one dealer at least told me was more than the 0.5-1 that was normal on a Harley (maybe he said 0.5 quart, I forget) was probably a symptom of maybe damage that had been done to the piston that was getting increasingly worse.....allowing oil to get up past that part of the piston/rings? I don`t know. But why is a stock engine detonating on premium when it wasn`t like I was in New Mexico. It was not THAT hot out and I didn`t have a passenger - just loaded panniers and tourpack but nothing heavy. Anyway it`s a touring bike and should be designed for a full load, nevermind 2/3 load and still detonating. Anyway yes I`d blame the occasional (it wasn`t near a lot of detanation, but in Yellowstone, and a couple other times) detonation for the piston but the mechanic knows that, and says the crank and primary damage was due to 6th at 100 kph.

 

I thought it could have been something else than 6th at 100 that killed it, so no I don`t think the blown motor answered my question. That`s what my mechanic says, but then Harley said no and a dealer service manager said no, and I thought I`d get more opinions.

I was wondering if anyone but my mechanic believes a Harley engine can incur damage to the crankshaft and/or top end from operating it like that. Because maybe my crank and top end, that died completely at a mere 29,000 km (like a new bike with other manufacturers) and cost me as much as an entier new KLR 650 motorcycle......though almost half of that was upgrades and some non-engine-failure-related work, were casualties of some other problem. I also thought someone could explain how exactly cruising in 6th at 100 kph can utterly destroy an essentially new motor.

I didn`t know I could just change sprockets and get newer ratios....you mean in the primary drive (vs the belt drive sprocket)? Yes I could do that if I really wanted to use 6th. But I can also simply use 5th like many/most are doing and that I did for 2000 km last month.

 

Well that`s my best recollection of the reason - he pointed it out. There may have been other problems. He speaks broken English and communication isn`t great. I`ll ask him next Friday when I see him. I still have the crank, and the conn rods seem to move smoothly on the pin, and I didn`t see what the fuss was about but who am I to question the mechanic and owner of the shop. But I will question him just to know. If that was the only reason.....I`ll have a Harley dealer check the crank out and see what they say. Maybe I`ll have a spare crank or I could sell it to recoup a bit of cost. Thanks for that information. However wouldn`t the new one he put in also be blue? Unless it`s the first crank he`s seen since 2008, he saw the blue, ordered the crank, saw it was blue too and covered his mistake by just installing it since he`d already ordered it (vs returning and looking like he didn`t know what he was doing). We`ll see.

You`re right about 6th all day you`ll get some lugging sometimes as you vary from flat and wind resistance or passing etc. I did go up some inclines in 6th and would leave it there so long as revs didn`t drop below say 2000 rpm. I`d also casually pass people sometimes without shifting to 5th, in no hurry so not a lot of throttle and the engine seemed fine. But maybe it wasn`t. I also had it in 6th when my wife was on there as we went across Canada to Alberta. Some hills going through Quebec and Ontario especially around Thunder Bay, and I can see me the new Harley owner proud of it`s low end big twin torque, rumbling up hills proud that the revs weren`t dropping (much). Perhaps doing that on smaller inclines that didn`t seem to need a shift to 5th were what caused accumulated wear/damage that didn`t surface until starting it at WOT in the spring when there was a straw that broke the camel`s back. Perhaps it was a combination of factors, including some detonation that took out the top end and the lugging taking out the primary drive case/bearing and crank.

 

I sure wouldn't be riding around at 2000 rpm, and certainly not using the logic of 'riding it up inclines and not shifting down unless it dipped below 2000'.
That's lugging it in my books. That and a detonation problem? No way. The stockers are pretty much dogs. At 2000 rpm at highway speeds you leave yourself no margin of safety. Even if you drop a gear and get on the gas from 2000 on a stocker they kinda suck.
Now I don't have the 6 speed on my RK, but I doubt I ride anywhere under 3000 rpm, and certainly not when my motor was stock. That's just asking for trouble IMO.
As far as gas mileage goes; 2000 rpm at highway speeds will not deliver decent mileage, if that's what you're trying to achieve. My stocker always got mid 40's consistantly (Imperial gallon) unless I was really on the gas. I could get 50 out of it with very little more effort. I've seen 55.
On my motor build now, I'm not happy if I see any less than high 40s pretty much all the time unless I've run a whole tank in town. My best mileage in top gear (on a 5 speed) is above legal limits just about anywhere on this continent. My stocker was about the same.
And detonation? You should not have been seeing any detonation, and putting around at 2000 is the last place you'd want to be if you're seeing it. IMO, that's what your problem was. That and thrashing it on startup in the spring. That didn't sound very smart to me.

Anyway....It's behind you now. The new motor better not detonate on you, but keep it away from 2000 regardless. You'll get your best mileage up where the motor runs most efficiently so there's no need to go down there thinking that's where you'll find it......and put your bike away properly next fall. Pull the battery and put it on a tender indoors somewhere. Add some fuel stabilizer to a full tank and wait for some half assed temperatures before you go about firing it up.

CN