I have to be careful here, don't want to get Boogaloodude started again. (B'dude, that's a joke) B'dude has already apologized for the hijack of your thread and I offer my apology as well. Now, to try and answer your questions.

I am not a tuner. I can work with timing curves and carb jetting but am in the process of converting my SERT to the TTS Mastertune; have the manual and will be attempting to learn and catch up with the technology. However, I do talk to tuners from time to time and have observed the tuning of my 95" Deuce with the SERT.

It has been said that you don't need to remap to upgrade your exhaust system but I would disgree from stand point that you bought the bike used with the OEM exhaust but unless you know that the previous owner was not running something else before re-installing the OEM exhaust, you may need to remap. That really depends on how the bike is running after you upgrade the exhaust. I think your approach of retaining at least checking the "Y" pipe and cleaning it up if necessary and replacing your mufflers with a freer flowing set like Rush, Fullsac, V&H or Cycleshak is a wise approach. Your question about tuners requires a more lenghty response.

You have not mentioned anything beyond a Stage I upgrade so you need to know that there are "pot" type tuners that will allow adding fuel at various points along the power band that are less expensive than more sophisticated systems that require dyno time to tune. IMHO, the best of those is the Techlusion (Dobeck) TFI/DFO. The DFO is speed density based while the others are throttle positon based. Easy to install, you tune by adding fuel and no dyno time required.

As for the more sophisticated and more expensive system, the general consensus among guys that know more about those systems than I is that unless you want to squeeze the last 3%-5% of TQ/HP out of a build, the Thundermax w/AutoTune is the way to go. Zippers sells the system and will pre-map the system to your configuration, i.e., OEM head pipes, SE mufflers and SE air filter or RH TDs and Heavy Breather air filter. You will need to have the 02 bungs welded into th OEM head pipes or buy new head pipes with the 02 bungs installed. You install the system (I am told that installation is not difficult) start the bike, ride and the system will "auto tune". The more diverse loads you put on the motor, the more the system tunes. I have read that it takes anywhere from 200 to 500 miles to complete the auto tune process.

Who knows why the original owner chose OEM head pipes and Bassasni slipons over TDs. IMHO but I doubt that you could avoid losing low end torque with either of the fuel management systems mentioned above, but can't say for sure. However, I would agree that with a system like the TTS Mastertune and a good dyno tune that you could tune the bike so that if there was a torque dip, it would be minimal and while it might show up on the dyno sheet, you probably wouldn't feel it unless you were riding in the mountains, two up and loaded. JMHO.

 

I also have a 2003 Rk stage2 and like everyone want to upgrade from stock headpipes without torque loss at low rpm. Have been looking for threads recently at the Chromewerks/S&S powertune true duals with hidden crossover. Like a lot of people not sold on the expense or the look of a Supermeg 2/1 but wuold love the performance and tunability. However from what I read the new style true dual might offer all those benefits and with only the cost of the headpipe upgrade. Any thoughts based on actuall dyno results?

 

No dyno results. However, any system with any connection of the exhaust from both cylinders is not a true dual system. The stock head pipes and the "Y" connector system are not bad. The "Y" tube might be improved by pulling it and cleaning it up and removing any restriction and replacing the OEM mufflers with a less restrictive set; some suggestions for replacement have been made in previous posts.

 

What new style true duals are you talking about? I am still interested in finding some true dual head pipes.

 

Go to the S&S web site or the Khrome werks site. The head pipes closely resemble Harley's new style head pipes on theie dressers where one (the front ) curves under the tranny. The crossover is hidden under the frame, but it is a small balance tube , so if you want to pick nits it' not technically a true dual but it definately allows the rear cylinder to have it's own restriction free head pipe instead of running 80% of exhaust out the right pipe. Talked to Dennis Manning of BUB (The Man of racing fame) and he told me their best performing "true duals" were the ones they sold with the crossover so the great perf claims everyone is claiming may have basis in engineering fact. They also happen to be a couple hundie cheaper than a full system if you allready have muffs. Research all forums for charts before discounting something just because it's new IMHO>

 

If pointing out that an exhaust system referred to as "true duals" is not a true dual system, I am a "nit picker". Neither S&S or Khrome Werks refers to the system as a true dual system because it isn't a true dual systems.

I completely agree that looking for dyno data to support the claims of increased performance over the OEM system, before buying into the hype, is a good idea. However, the fact that there is no dyna data available from the vendors is telling. If there was dyno data to support the claimed performance increase, I bet it would be available. Furthermore, it would take back to back dyno data where the only variable was the exhaust to support the claim.

I am not "discounting" the system; just calling things as I see them. I think the system looks cool but not buying into the performance hype. If you want your early FL model to look like the later FLs or you want to route the exhaust under the frame; that's cool and reason enough to buy the system. But you were insinuating the these new head pipes might offer the performance and tunability of a Supermeg 2:1; no way, no how is that even close to reality.

BTW, running 80% of the exhaust out the right pipe is one of the reasons why the OEM system works as well as it does.

 

S&S does list Dyno results. Khrome werks also report gains in HP and tq. They manufacture the pipes. There are definately dyno results posted on both V-Twin forum and HTT forum, from Indy dyno/dealers. It appears that these parts are a definite contender in bang for buck category. My dyno guy at my local dealer can't wait to test a set for himself as we have first hand positive reports from a well known builder who wrenched at the dealer in our Detroit area. He reportedly has them on his own bike and loves em. You must not discount the design untill you research the data. I agree that the stock headpipe can work as I have 98 tq on my SE stage 2 with Kerker slipons, and I also agree the Supermeg is one of the best but being 1 or 2 ft lbs better may not justify the price of the total system vs the Power Tune duals. The Trapp has been called butt ugly, by many who like the look of duals on a bagger. Isay to each his own. I still maintain that the reports I've read are outstanding. I am simply waiting for more dyno results. If the numbers aren't there I might by the Trapp.

 

Like I said, not discounting the design or knocking the system. My beef is with idea that the Power Tune, or any other dual system might provide the performannce and tunability of the SuperTrapp system. You did say "might" but that is even a stretch. You have to excuse the skepticism. there is always some new system that's supposed to be the do all, end all system but there really isn't anything new; just a re-packaging of what is already out there; no silver bullets. Until I see back to back dyno resultls comparing the Power Tune system with others, not drinking the cool aid, but that's just me.

As for the cost advantage, one would have to use the same slipons used to produce dyno results, so, unless one has those same slipons, you can't expect to replicate the results, if that it the goal. So if one is chasing numbers, is it worth another set of slipons for the gain?

SuperTrapp looks have improved and, IIRC, they now offer a "ghost" pipe system for baggers. Like you say, each to his own and one has to make the "form over function" decision. Let us know what you find out.

 

If you want the rhinehart true duals, buy them! I just can't imagine the tq loss if any would be that significant. BTW, they'll sound great!

 

I recently bought the fuel moto efi tuner. I am determined to purchase the true duals before long. I am just trying to decide what look I'm going for. I just love the look and sound of true duals and I have to agree hat the true duals can't lose enough torque to make a difference. The 2-1 pipes may get more hp and tq but that is not what I'm looking for. If I am heading down an open road and the bike next to me has 5 more tq I'll bet neither of us know it. I have to say a bagger doesn't look right to me without the second pipe.