It’s funny you should say how popular it is because a co-worker, when told about my situation and if he knew about controllers, he didn’t but had heard of PowerCommander, saying 90% of the controllers mentioned in magazines is PowerCommander (or something like that, I forget how he put it but it’s the only one that stuck in his mind anyway). As I just stated above in response to fxdxrider, since it seems so silly to buy a FuelPack only to know darned well I want the 255 cam (I love torque and as my ‘revving 2150 in 6th’ post implies, I’m not when to rev out much past 4000-4500 rpm anyway), I’ll ask the dealer tomorrow morning about cancelling the FuelPack order…..he’s going to freak….. but keep the cam/pipes coming and order this. I’ll have to word it carefully but I wrote a test once and apparently I had quite an aptitude for being a salesman even though that’s not what I’d went to school for. I’ll stress that they don’t have to do anything but install it, since as you say Jamie can map it with my configuration before shipping, and that the company is very customer focused so can help them now if it’s not quite running right AND for future installs as they get increasingly comfortable specifying it….though if their customers are as happy as they say they are and they really have had zero pinging issues he’ll just get really irritated I don’t believe him (not that I think he`s misleading me or making anything up, I`m sure these people all are happy with the FuelPack but maybe some even have pinging and either don`t recognize it or don`t believe its all that serious as its so faint or whatever). Not to mention that they’ll learn something about this option for possible use by other customers in case some of them have heard bad things about the FuelPack or whatever. It’ll put my departure back yet ANOTHER day but at this point I don’t care, I just want something powerful AND safe. I suppose I could request a different cam and just use the FuelPack, but the Stage II kits I saw all seemed to come with the 255 cam so presume there’s no choice, or Harley feels this is the best cam for most people who buy their stage kits in 103 or 110 sizes. That alone is quite a testament to how good the cam works in the real world no? Oh wait, you said to tell Jamie stock heads and cams….but did you mean the 255 cams that come ‘stock’ with the Stage II 103 kit? I was thinking this is the type of controller that can adjust timing AND fuel to enable use of the 255 cams. Also I see they have one for '2007 Touring models w/ O2 sensors' and other models from later years like 09, so assume there's one for the 2008 and they simply neglected to say 2007/2008 Touring models'. If I get the dealer to install it and work with Jamie if there’s any little tweaks despite hit mapping the controller for my configuration, I’ll blast off (after a meticulous unladen breakin around town and area backroads!) on the open road to the nearest dyno-equipped and competent Harley shop to do the tune (assume AFR is air to fuel ratio) if they’re familiar which they should be. Maybe someday I’ll use my butt dyno but that’s failed me just recently as you know. I guess I could also at this juncture consider others like TMax and that TTS MasterTune thing but presume they’re significantly more expensive or at least the companies are not as customer focused or dealer friendly.

Thanks!

 

Thanks for the clarification on the difference between the 103 and 110 provided in the Limited and CVO bikes, and the stage kits seen in the catalogues (which presumably being less restricted by EPA requirements). I thought the Stage II kit was one of those that didn`t have the `for racing only` notes after them, but I may be thinking of the 255 cam or the SE performance pipes which I also ensured were street worthy and not only for racing. As the 255 cam is in the Stage II kit I would think it too would be street worthy. But if street worthy you`d think they too, like the entire motorcycles Harley sells with the 103 and 110 engines, would ALSO have to satisfy the EPA, which begs the question: if these parts pass EPA requirements why can`t Harley just include them all on the motorcycles themselves? Well I probably have misunderstood something there and if so, don`t worry about explaining as I`ve already asked and been answered enough plus I`m just thinking out loud more than actually asking the question. But if the parts I`ve chosen are shown in the catalogue as street worthy and not only for racing, I would think those would have some warranty. The dealer has a 30 day warranty on work they do as well in case its their fault and not the part`s (good luck to me proving one or the other unless they do that when repairing it and sort it out between them).

I realize the stock motor output isn`t the maximum potential it has - I just thought all Limiteds and CVO`s came with Screamin Eagle stage kits, like Stage II, III or IV so the hp/tq for the Limited with the 103 would be the same as for a kit added to a 96 ci engine. I also realize hp is a function of tq and rpm (there`s a constant somewhere in there too but I forget the formula) so higher revving engines can produce a lot more hp even if they have less torque, and rev higher due to lighter parts which have less reciprocating or spinning weight. I always defend Harley pushrods by saying you don`t NEED lightweight twin overhead cams if you only want to sping to 5500 or so rpm because buyers want lower revving torquey power rather than frantic 12,000 rpm engines. As for a normal cam (vs 255 cam) in an otherwise Stage I kit, I`ve thought of that too, a cam that is less prone to detonating nor as sensitive to timing but that still gives a big boost over the stock cam, and then I can use the dealer`s beloved FuelPack and everyone would be happy. However I love torque and low/mid range power, not interested at this time at least in revving to 4500 and up very often, so though the added displacement alone will boost low end over the 96 ci engine, for a big heavy loaded down touring rig I`m pretty comfortable the 255 is the best cam and therefore I need to ensure its safe by following djl`s recommendations. I feel very bad second guessing the dealer who`s also trying to help me and is just as confident in his proposal, but at the end of the day it would be nice to have adjustable timing vs `fuel only` capabilities. Anyway that love of low end/revving torque is the tendancy that got this and another post started in fact, my low revving 2150 rpm in 6th and short shifting. Which brings up a seeming contradiction....we have to keep the engine running above 2500 rpm especially in higher gears, but the Stage II kit comes with a 255 low end torque cam in both 103 and 110 configurations! I know in lower gears this low end would be used, and maybe 2500-3500 is still considered low end so it WOULD still be used even at highway speeds and passing. Anyway just something that crossed my mind and it`s of no significance. I`m absolutely sure the 255 Stage II 103 will exceed my expectations performance wise right up to where it tapers off since I doubt I`ll go there anyway.

By the way I really like the idea of a controller that enables this.......which the FuelPack doesn`t:

"Some folks when leaving their comfort zone--where they live and get their gas-- cut the timing a percent or two for the trip to have better piece of mine."

 

LastHalf,
If you decide to go the Power Commander route, you, or the dealer, needs to call Jamie and tell him the exact components fo the build, i.e., displacement, cams, heads, air intake and exhaust. If you don't give him the correct information, he can't map the unit to the build.

 

Dealer said the kit comes with a 0.030" Cometic MLS head gasket so he didn't have to put that in by special request (which is good).

He also said the FuelPack has timing changes done during the initial programming, based on all the hardware I have, and timing as with fuel can be adjusted at a shop if there's problems. Things that don't affect operating safely (detonation wise) but popping or other comfort-related things can be adjusted on the road without taking it to a shop from what I understand, though maybe not timing. Perhaps the ones you mention can adjust timing with less hassle though, without taking it into a shop to get V&H to send a reprogram or whatever they do to adjust the timing again. You see I had tried to cancel it but when he said that, combined with the fact its en route after already programmed everything implying its either too late to return without a labour backcharge from V&H, I just let it go and will try it but bring a bottle of booster. He said customers with engines like 110's and 103's with 255 cams are using this fuel/ignition programmed FuelPack with no problems....and these were guys that had pinging before but not after the FuelPack. Finally there are guys that went from PowerCommander to FuelPack, not that that means anything I suppose but implies they either preferred the FuelPack for some reason or at least they changed over and were just as happy. I'm still a bit nervous but it does appear to be too late given the programming is done and it's shipped.

I asked him if given their confidence it won't ping, they would take it back and return my money if I encounter pinging during this trip that cannot be tuned out by timing changes, and he was the main mechanic familar with controllers but would have to ask the owner. However if they use FuelPacks on every build I cannot see why they wouldn't be able to do that or at LEAST buy it off me barely used for a very good price to minimize cost to upgrade.

 

The thing about --Squish-- and the combustion process is what it sounds like.
The combustion chamber, and the relationship to the piston, as the piston gets almost to the top of the compression stroke, things getstighter and tighter.
The combustion chamber-- to keep it simple--- does not open up all around the top of the cilender. iI opens up maybe 1/2 of it or so. The rest is flat generally.
The area that is not the combustion chamber is flat and if say, you have a flat top piston, the piston comes up just to the top of the stroke and this flat area gets very tight.

This outside area, so to speak, is the "Squish" area. This, at the last instance --Squishes the fuel air mixture--- from the edges and forces it, with great turbulance, into the midle of the chamber where it can be fired off better.

It also snuffes out potential preignition and detonation--The hope is.

Folks mill the heads some--Mine is 0.06 milled (higher compression) and uses a thinner gasket, mine is 0.030, instead of 0.045(stock). The Squish is generally the thickness of the gasket then if, "Zero Deck Height", is there. Piston even with the top of the cylinder.

The Squish works harder and does a better job.

My head hurts.

 

Open the link and go to post #33, 79, 218, 221, 402 531, 1266 and 1316. I could be wrong about the current state of development of the FuelPak but I am pretty sure ignition timing can be adjusted with the FuelPak.

http://www.*****************/forums/ef...ak-talk-3.html

I am not saying it won't work for you but if you install cams, I think you will not be satisfied with the state of tune you can achieve with the FuelPak. Good luck!

 

Yes I was going to give all that info to Jamie and ask the dealer to work with him when commissioning the new build/controller combo to get it as close as possible before I leave. But when I called for Jamie last night and again this morning they were closed, and couldn't leave a message, so was about to try later until I spoke to the dealer just before posting above the results of that conversation implying the FuelPack was already programmed and en route and given they do program in for timing (although perhaps after that it's not as sophisticated/easy-to-change as the PowerCommander) I just decided to try it but with trepidation and carrying some booster with me and a wary ear so I can pull into a dealer if I hear it to fine tune the timing/fuel.

So hopefully this path works out and I'll let you know in a month or so how it all worked out. Of course if things go badly due to the FuelPack I'll want to beat my head against the wall, but the fact they do account for timing changes things a bit I think so it should be fine.

 

Thanks! Some more good reading....I'm at work so that'll have to wait for tonight.

In fact I asked the dealer if this capability is recent and he said it wasn't - though 'recent' is a relative term that I didn't define during our short conversation. Recent to him might be in the past year while only 2 years ago they could only adjust fuel, but feedback from shops, customers and the market/competition encouraged them to add this feature else lose customers such as yourself and others on sites discussing controller capabilities. You're probably right I won't be completely satisfied with how perfectly I can get it to maximize power. But if it wards off pinging I think I'll be so blown away by the power, when I really didn't need any more power as it was (ignorance is bliss), I'll still be extremely happy with it. Worst case in a few years I need a better tune yet to maximize power with the hardware I have but am held back by the FuelPack, I'll just sell it on eBay as you said and install the best controller available at the time....and in a few years, there may be even more advancements so I may be even happier than had I got one today to prevent buying one twice if you know what I mean.

 

YOUR head hurts.....imagine mine! At least you understood it as you typed it! I'll read this tonight too, thanks for the explanation.

 

Q. Can the Fuelpak increase my rev limiter?


A. No, the Fuelpak will not control/adjust idle speed, ignition timing, or rev limit

This was copied from V+H's website FAQ section for the fuelpak. Not trying to monkey wrench your plan, just want you to have correct info. Possibly there have been updates to the fuelpak and the FAQ was not yet updated? It's the last FAQ question on the site.

Good Luck