Simply by googling I see 96 ci is 9.2:1 and the 103 was 9.1:1....well it was but they bumped it up to closer to the number you mentioned above (9.5-9.8) recently. Probably the Stage I and II ones available now are that higher compression ratio. Again I still don`t know where I saw that, I thought in the performance cataologue. I`m pretty shocked at how low the 103 power output is, not near what the Stage II shows in the performance catalogue so the 103 provided in certain models like Limiteds must be detuned from these Stage II engine kits which are 95 ft lbs and 80 hp.

https://www.hdforums.com/articles/20...on-engine.html

 

I called to discuss cancelling the cam portion of the order. Before asking to cancel I mentioned concerns about the FuelPack (wotj 255 cam timing sensitivity and pinging issues esp'y in 100 F) and he said they've installed about 200 FuelPack equipped Stage II kits and they ride down south without issue. So it seems their setups or tunes have fuel alone getting the job done. I have a 30 day warranty on their work, though damage due to detonation might not be included, who knows but I'll ask them about that. They may just suggest a bottle of Octane booster which I was going to bring anyway per your recommendations. Anyway he thinks I'm worrying too much given their experience with Stage II and the FuelPack and who was I to argue with him about that? I think if he really thought it could be an issue on my long trip he'd suggest staying with 96 or at least drop the cam, but he said the 103 is just as reliable/durable, and 200 successful non-pinging Stage II systems imply the cam isn't a problem either.

If I have to use a lot of octane booster to get out of any pinging, I'll have to consider selling the FuelPack and getting a TMax autotune or that other one you mention and see someone else to dyno tune it. For now I'll have to give him the benefit of the doubt (I can also make the swap along the trip if a certain dealer has one of these controllers in stock AND has a dyno). So I'll stop worrying now! Thanks again for your help....I know you stayed on a few posts longer than intended in order to ensure I knew what may be getting into. At least I'll be aware pinging can rear its head again, to be armed with octane booster, and be prepared to swap my controller out on the road. In the meantime I'll do some pre-emptive research on the controllers you mentioned to make any choice along my route a simple matter of buying it vs researching while on vacation.

 

The 103 bikes and 110 bikes you get from Harley are made to satisfied the EPA. Including the noise from intakes, engine and exhaust.

The SE catalogs parts, almost all, are --Off Road-Racing-- listed. HD will not warrenty most of this.
Some individual dealers will work with you a little with this but only just them and it is not in writing.

What the stock engines power output has little to do with the engine potential.

The limiting factor for the street is the RPM the engine can practically turn. Just the design limits. This includes the pratical limits of the strength of the materials and weight of each.

Thats why sport bikes that turn 12K-14K RPM get the HP. Little bitty parts flying around.

But rarely have anywhere near the torque, specially at lower RPM. Big parts moving slow.

Just the design of the engines --and the bikes.

I dont see why a dealer can't put in a 103 kit and normal cam and tune and have things work fine.

Some folks when leaving their comfort zone--where they live and get their gas-- cut the timing a percent or two for the trip to have better piece of mine.

 

You are referring to stock compression ratios; the figures I referenced were based on the addition of the 255 cams. Static compression for a particular motor configuration doesn't change but corrected compression and cranking compression are dynamic and are functions of the intake valve close event.

You obviously don't have a clue on this stuff; not throwing rocks, just acknowledging a fact. I will tell you what I think would be a wise approach given your situation and you can do what you want with the information.

1. Go ahead with the 103" upgrade. Your logic of taking advantage of some free labor to R/R the top end makes sense. The increase in displacement alone will produce more torque.

2. Forget about cams for now; you really need a more sohisticated fuel management system to optimize the additional performance cams will provide. The FuelPak will be adequate for stock cams.

3. Have the Stage I work done, i.e., add the SE air filter package and an aftermarket exhaust upgrade like the V&H Classic Slipons, Rush or Cycle Shack slipons. The SE slipons are OK but the aftermarket units are better.

4. Get the FuelPak; the dealer is familiar with it and can get it setup properly for your trip. But, if you add cams later, you will need to replace the FuelPak with a more sophisticated fuel management system and get a dyno tune. You can peddle the FuelPak on Ebay.

5. Have the dealer use a .030" Cometic MLS head gasket when reassembling the top end. The thinner head gasket will bump compression a bit but, more importantly, will tighten up the squish area for more efficient combustion and will help mitigate detonation.

6. Install compression releases, manual or ACR, your call. Even with stock cams, your cranking compression will be about 190psi. Some run with cranking compression that high without releases but, if you use them, compression releases will extend starter and battery life. Additionally, should you eventually install cams, you cranking compression will likely increase and the releases will be necessary.

So, when completed, you will have a Stage I 103" motor. See how the bike performs on the trip and if you still want more power, you can take your time, select a cam and fuel management system and kick things up a notch. If you weren't about to head out on a long road trip, I would not be so concerned with installing the 255 cams; you can always defer that modification until you return from your trip.

I don't care how many 103/255/FuelPak installs your dealer has done. If you are running cams, particularly cams with an intake close event of 25*, you need the ability to adjust timing just as much as you need the ability to adjust A/F.

 

There you go.

 

LastHalf - do what djl says. That post is your guidebook. I would also recommend you invest some time in trawling through these forums finding out as much as you can about modified engines. I recommend you focus on what effect an early closing cam has on dynamic compression etc so that you understand why the 255 makes torque low and is weaker at higher RPM's and the potential for detonation that brings. Your knowledge levels will improve if you do this and everyone can use a bit more knowledge. Good luck with the trip.

 

LastHalf,
One edit to my previous post regarding tuners.

FuelMoto offers a Power Commander setup for $239 along with a CD with hundreds of maps. If you call and talk to Jamie, and give him the specifics or your motor, i.e., 103", stock heads and cams, which specific exhaust and air filter, Jamie will map the controller for that configuration so it will be mapped when the dealer installs it; it shoud run fine. Jamie and his crew are very customer oriented and will work with you and/or your dealer.

I am not a big fan of the PC tuners for my applications but this may be a good option for you. If you have access to a dyno, the dyno operator can tune timing and AFR. The Power Commander is a very popular system and most dyno tuners are familiar with it.

Additionally, you can download different maps from the CD or from the Fuel Moto or the DynoJet website. Check out the link and you can see some of the maps that are availble.

If you want to educate yourself, you can make changes to the maps yourself. There are plenty of guys that have learned to tweak their maps on their own and let the butt dyno or their fuel mileage be the measure of the tweaks.

http://www.fuelmotousa.com/fuelmotoefituner.htm

Not to confuse things for you but there are a lot of unhappy FuelPak users and, from what I have read, the V&H tech support is lacking.

 

I guess I thought 103’s in the Limited models would also come with 255 cams since my understanding of the Limited models came with Stage II Screamin’ Eagle setups. Just like I thought CVO models come with a Screamin’ Eagle setup also with 255 cams given the massive price the CVO’s at least are asking. So when I saw those ‘stock compression ratios’ I thought the 103 had 255 cams assuming the 103 was from the only model I knew of that Harley uses that motor (a good assumption I thought). Not to mention I’m sure I saw in the performance catalogue an apples to apples comparo of 96 ci and 103 ci compression ratios between a stock 96 ci and a Stage II 103 ci with 255 cam showing the same thing, 96 ci more than 103 ci….again though I can’t find it. I must say though that I almost typed something in my last post asking if its possible cam timing of the intake opening can affect compression ratio to explain why the 103 ci Stage II engine with 255 cam might be higher compression than the stock 103 ci compression I had seen, but figured it probably didn’t make sense not to mention again I thought all 103 ci’s in the Limiteds would use a 255 cam given it’s a torque cam vs a high revving cam and therefore more suitable for most riders.

You’re right I have never heard of (or don’t have a clue about as you put it) static vs corrected vs cranking compression ratios but only knew there was a compression ratio which I presume is the ratio between cylinder/head volume at BDC and TDC….or something and that higher compression made more power but demanded higher octance which is a measure of the resistance of a fuel to detonation. Nor since I always left snowmobiles or dirt bikes stock did I know about fuel controllers or pipes or modifications in general….the only way to know this stuff is to either be a mechanic in the first place or be ‘into it’ and doing it to your equipment. Again I only bought this first Harley last summer and proceed to put to on a 20,000 km trip immediately. When I started asking about 6th gear at 100 kph I was definitely not planning on modifying anything, which only came about when I saw opportunity to increase displacement while the engine’s apart and half my stock top end needs replacement anyway so why not upgrade? I can tell you it sure changed my view of things from being upset with my misfortune and feeling sorry for myself to being excited at the opportunity to create a more enjoyable machine and riding experience for as long as I own the bike.

Anyway, yes when the dealer was saying the 96 without cam and with FuelPack, intake and pipes was as good or better than a 103….I seriously questioned that, though I’m sure he meant a 103 without pipe and FuelPack which would probably be true. But there’s no replacement for displacement (or compression ratio!) when it comes to power and torque so all else being equal, the 103 being 120 cc bigger MUST be the way to go if replacing top end components anyway, PROVIDED I put the FuelPack, intake and performance mufflers on the 103 too. I’m very comfortable with that decision which started all this modification discussion in the first place. The cams are already on order so I can either return them or keep them but simply put them away for when I have more time to pick the best controller and pipes as you say…..like those you mention which I’ll investigate. Frankly if they’re as pricey as my brief google search implies, $650 vs the Screamin Eagle $370, I’ll probably just go Screamin Eagle even if they’re not quite as good. Though maybe I can get a better deal on V&H, Rush or Cycle Shack (someone mentioned Rhinehart too). A few days ago even I wasn’t even considering ANY upgrade, so if I don’t get that last 2 hp or ft-lb of performance at this stage but save $280, I don’t think it’ll matter to me unless I miss the louder sound or sound quality. I should really listen to some soundbytes from each I guess since in the broad scheme of things what’s $280? If I want to install the cams I’ll sell the FuelPack and buy something better, but if I don’t need the cams I’ll sell the cams.

Thanks for the tip on the head gasket, I would have thought that goes contrary to the desire to prevent pinging, but again I don’t really have a clue (and having merely heard of squish before in all my reading doesn’t really count I know). I assume that will help whether I end up using the cam down the road or not. Yes I asked him to order compression releases per the performance manual recommendation. One of them at least requires machining I was trying to avoid, so hopefully the one he gets is easier to install. With the price of batteries and starters, nevermind labour to replace the latter if I don’t do it myself (though I’d think that is pretty straightforward even a monkey like me can do it), I’d say it’s a wise purchase just like the oil cooler. Chances are I will one day need more yet, especially if I have spare money lying around and have a midlife crisis, and I’ll be adding the cams sitting in the garage and maybe a used controller on eBay to make me FuelPack loss less of a loss, almost like a trade of sorts if you know what I mean. This is the only Harley I’ve ever ridden so have no idea how this upgrade will ‘feel’ but am optimistic it’ll feel as good as going from 66 to 80 hp and from 78 to 95 ft-lbs suggests. Sometimes I wonder if I should have went all the way to the 110, but read that the 110 has some issues the 103 does not, and confidence in the 103 is further bolstered knowing Harley provides that motor as standard equipment in the fairly high production Limited models.

I'll be very wary about the cams with the FuelPack despite those reportedly successful installs....I'm always trying to minimize taking too much of his time, so didn't lambast him with detailed questions on where these owners went, rather than a vague "do they drive down south where its hot". Thanks again for taking the time and effort to help

 

Yes I can tell I'd be unwise to do anything different! Trust me I'll be printing this all out if I have enough ink as its full of good stuff from everybody. The dealer may be sore and take it personally so be on the defensive about what they feel has been working so well. But I'll ask them about that PowerCommander option I see djl just suggested, especially since it's about $100 less. Especially since the cams are on order. If I pay return shipping on the FuelPack I'm sure he won't mind, again other than hurt pride in which case he should learn to be humble anyway. Everyone can learn and maybe his trying the PowerCommander with me will be the best thing he's ever done and his future customers will only benefit and he'll do even better as a business. When I'm back from vacation I'll for sure be hitting the forums to learn as much as I can as it's clearly a wealth of information and helpful people.

Thanks! I'm just dying to get out on the road which will make a good breakin as described by djl difficult....but there's no way I'm wrecking this engine like I did the last (well 1 piston/jug anyway), so I'll be patient.

 

I'm also going to check prices of pipes from these other manufacturers and if any close to the $370 I may also cancel the pipes. Again I do NOT look forwarding to telling him that and I can't blame him if he's upset, but if I pay any return shipping I can't see why they should really care other than some wasted ordering time. I'm confident with everything but them and the controller but if I'm spending my hard earned money I better make sure I get what I want/need even if it ruffles some feathers or I look indecisive, which I suppose technically I am but hey there`s so many choices out there. Not to mention I`m new to this modification stuff and finding stuff out as I go along, combined with being in a rush the entire time forcing rushed initial buying decisions to get my bike fixed so the start of my vacation (this weekend) coincides with the end of the power upgrade! That`s right it`s no longer an expensive repair but a power upgrade, as if the foolhardy events leading to the failure never occurred in my mind at least.