Thanks for the detailed/helpful post. I don`t think I was confusing the two issues - the implication from others seemed to be that lugging the engine at 2150 cruising caused it to load/carbon up and create hot spots due to not running efficiently which lead to detonating. I was actually about to ask that next.....is it possible the lugging caused the detonation, given I was running stock timing/mapping and premium fuel and it was detonating anyway. If lugging doesn`t in any way contribute to detonation, how is lugging bad for the engine anyway? Just curious. I`m glad that the lugging may not have lead to the piston breaking on the side, so I don`t feel quite as guilty though I`m still guilty for not insisting a dealer look at the pinging vs simply telling them about it and expecting they recommend a re-map, which I still feel was their responsibility as I`m merely an owner who can`t be expected to know when I need to request something specific like an EFI remap. I can only be counted on to explain the problem, which I did. Anyway yes I am concentrating on the detonation, knowing full well I now have to just run it in 5th to be over 2500 rpm to resole the lugging. Hence my recent talk of getting an EFI remap whether or not I go Stage I or II.

Okay I`ll get an oil cooler. Probably go with synthetic oil too, though that may be overkill, it may not be with a Stage I or II kit if I go that route. I too was thinking what you were, that I should first get the stock motor figured out, but then it occurred to me that Harley does use the 103 in a stock bike - the limiteds etc. Plus my stock motor was definately not reliable so it can`t be any worse than that, despite the common knowledge that stock is safe.

I`ll ask about a controller, but time is tight as it is before I leave, and that may really be pushing it. I suppose I could get an EFI re-map for now, and then get a controller later when it`s not such a rush decision. Worst case I get in really hot weather (going to Florida) and I need another re-map, which may be cheaper with a controller?

If 80-85 mph is the sweet spot for a 5 speed, I wonder if 60 mph is best served in 4th!? Anyway I`ll surely just stick with 5th at 60 mph.

Back to the Stage I or II kit, again I know what you mean, but I`m leaving on another 20,000 km trip next weekend right from the dealer regardless if its the 96 ci or new 103 ci displacement. Both will be effectively dealer top end rebuilds. Does it matter if its 103 vs 96 given both displacements are provided as stock options? Then again so is the 110 in the CVO models and I heard the 110 has been problematic. I think you can understand what I mean where its the perfect time to add 103 pistons/cylinders and install them since its already apart and I need one 96 ci piston/cylinder anyway so price difference isn`t that much. Plus can`t I break it in on the start of my trip as well as I could at home? Sure it`ll be loaded up, but the first 8-10 hrs of my trip is alone as I pick my wife up somewhere.

I don`t understand what you mean by, "....if you do go with the big bore 103 ci kit, don't let the dealer flash the ECM with the factory download; it is designed for all Harley parts". Isn`t the SE 103 ci Stage I or II kit comprised of all Harley parts, including in the Stage II case for my 2008 tourer, SE catalyst slipons. Maybe you`re talking about the case where I put V&H pipes on....well in that case yes I`ll make sure they don`t, but if I`m all Harley SE setup, I don`t have to worry and they can simply do the factory download right? If I get a controller vs just a re-map, and I presume a re-map is okay for my trip since if a problem down south I can get ANOTHER re-map, yes I`ll ensure its a system they`re comfortable with or get the TMax if the dealer doesn`t have a dyno or the ability to tune theirs. I take it `Zippers` is the manufacturer or supplier of the TMax w/ auto tune. Sounds like that TMax is the best way to go for someone that just wants it for reliability and not for performance?

 

Yes maybe it was just a relative thing (relatively low revving engines), but you do see so many owners turning their idle down on Harleys to get that galloping unsteady sound, and lugging it around town to accentuate the uneven firing sound, which led me to believe you can`t really lug a Harley engine to death otherwise so many experienced grisled owners wouldn`t be doing it! I`d still like to know why lugging at say 2150 rpm is bad for the engine if it doesn`t ultimately lead to detonation. But you imply the riding it below the powerband, or lugging it, can cause the detonation/pinging so maybe my new riding style will eliminate it without an EFI re-map or tuner purchase etc. I hope that`s all that`s required but past 5th gear use didn`t seem to eliminate the ping so....perhaps a tune too as you say, even though bought at 14,000 km I didn`t think a tune was required yet.

After all of this and after already paying to repair it, like I said I love the bike so can`t see selling it once I pay to fix it....provided I can get it to stop pinging. I`ll only sell it if I can`t get that fixed, as it`ll drive me crazy riding around with mental images of cracking pistons and valves running through my head everytime I touch the throttle or add a bit of load and hear tinkling sounds. I`ll start even dreaming about tinkling sounds in my sleep (or in a paranoid state while riding, hear them when they`re not there)! But its not just about adjusting my riding style which is easy - I have to do an EFI remap or add a controller to do what Harley was supposed to do in the first place.

 

 

Sorry!

 

Thats turning the Idle down, not general driving conditions. And if I'm not mistaken, turning the Idle down like that doesn't keep the oil pumping the way it should be.

Let it breath, tune it, bump up rpm's.

Others here could tell you lugging is no good, probably with a logical technical answer. It doesn't even feel or sound right down at your 2150.

Good luck on your trip. Don't overthink things. Have Fun

 

Will do (breath, tune, more rpm, have fun) and will not (overthink things as I tend to....perhaps you noticed), thanks!

 

Didn't read every line but just my 2cents.
One I believe that the 103 is more reliable than anything bigger. Reason being less stress on engine crank. I am not saying that you can't have a reliable larger chin engine.
Also if you a good tuner you will not need an oil cooler. Im at 103 cu. 205 ccp, running 48° of timing getting 49 miles to the gallon. I have yet to experience preignition and or overheating. Plugs are very very light tan. I have not had it on a dunk but had walked by guys who have dynoed 105 horse.
Harley runs there engines for epa and that can take its toll on the engine. A good tune and builder and you hve a good reliable bike.

 

Lugging puts a huge stress on the crank and you can twist a crank that way; lugging is just hard on all internal rotating and reciprocting parts. Furthermore, you don't really see lots of guys lugging Harleys for the loping sound; that's just idiotic. The lugging could have contributed to the piston cracking but I doubt it was the primary cause.

An oil cooler is a good upgrade; one that can only help and cannot hurt. Regardless of displacement or type of oil. Larger displacement motors generate more heat and will benefit from the oil cooler.

Once tuned, very doubful that you would need a retune. If the Tmax w/auto tune is used, it will make adjustments for altitude.

I thought you said in a previous post that you could tell when a motor was in a "happy"
place?

If you leave on a cross country trip, from the dealer, without proper breakin or tune, you are a very disillusioned and naive individual. You will deserve whatever ills may befall you on the open road. Very dumb thing to do, but that's just me. NO, it doesn't matter if the top end build is 96" or 103", still a very bad idea.

Very simple; if you use any aftermarket parts, i.e. breather and/or exhaust, the factory ECM flash will not play well with aftermarket parts, period.

You can't go wrong with the TMax and you should install it and put about 500 miles on the motor before hitting the open road.

 

Thanks for the explanation on why lugging, like anything under 2500 rpm or specifically in my case 2150 rpm, is hard on an engine`s reciprocating components. I`m sure there`s a technical and detailed explanation of how it stresses and is hard on them but the main thing is to know that it does.

Oil cooler coming up! Especially since I am, in fact, adding a 103 ci kit if all goes as planned. I understand the logic behind getting the 96 ci operating first before adding more power, and call me foolish but there`s also logic in the fact its an OEM kit that Harley sells in an actual warrantied model (limiteds as I understand) and its a very popular upgrade that`s proven reliable. I suspect most people in my shoes would do the same thing given half their 96 ci top end is wasted anyway and the labour to slap it all together is pretty much the same be it 96 ci or 103 ci. The main thing seems to be a proper tune and breakin, which I fully plan on doing in addition to keeping the revs up, adding an oil cooler and synthetic oil and being paranoid about tinkling/pinging from now on to get a retune at first ping. No more assuming any such sounds are normal or mild anymore, and no more letting dealer service departments tell me not to worry about this or that that is normal. I`ll insist that they stop any ping I hear with ANOTHER re-map whatever that costs, rather than wait for them to tell me I need one.

If 80-85 mph is the sweet spot for a 5 speed, I wonder if 60 mph is best served in 4th!? Anyway I`ll surely just stick with 5th at 60 mph.

About the `happy place` I got that term off at least one other member earlier in this thread. You had said 80-85 was the sweet spot for a 5 speed, and it occured to me that the sweet spot for 60 mph must then be 4th, which was temporarily confusing given everyone was saying cruise at 60 in 5th (not 4th). I understand now you weren`t meaning cruising at 80-85 mph in 5th but that`s simply the sweet spot for acceleration right? Maybe not. Anyway yes I used the same term later, perhaps in an example talking about my dirt bike and snowmobile experiences. Specifically, why I didn`t think I had to be in the sweet spot of the powerband when cruising on those to explain why on the Harley I knew my engine sounded best at say 2500 rpm but didn`t think running below that was hard on it. For the snowmobile example, 5500-6500 rpm may be the happy place, but I regularly run it or trail ride below 5500 rpm without fear of damage or stressing it. I probably also said I knew where the Harley ran better, or was happier, somewhere above 2800 rpm and may be where you heard me saying that.

I think I should explain how far from everything I am and why I can`t just get it from the neighbourhood dealer to put 500 miles of breakin on it, rather will have to break it in on the first 500 miles of my trip. I am 8 hours aoor 560 km of half gravel road from the nearest Harley dealer and had to send it there on a freaking train. I go on a passenger train to meet the bike at the dealer and start my vacation. We don`t all live in big cities or towns with or even close to Harley dealers so I don`t have the luxury in this case of tooling around my hometown on it. If the concern with taking a fresh engine on the open road is that it hasn`t had a proper breakin around town or revving it a certain way through lower speeds before hitting the highway, then of course I won`t do that. I`ve broken in a lot of snowmobile engines, their drive belts, their rebuilt top ends before, varying the throttle and not cruising at a steady particular speed and only going short bursts of WOT. I get that. I think my definition of open road and yours is different, specifically what I had meant was the first portion of my road trip would have to be used to break it in however the dealer or whoever tells me I should. If that means slower roads and lots of varying speeds and engine speeds and gears, then I`ll do that even if it seems ridiculous. Because it`s either that or put it back on the train and not use it until 2012. Seriously - becuase my vacation was booked long ago and I`ve already bumped it back a couple weeks. So no I`m not planning to hold it at highway speeds, steady, with a new engine rebuild but do what is recommended however I swing that I`ll make it happen. What`s the difference if I break it in properly at home or elsewhwere so long as I follow the right procedure? That is neither naive, disillusioned, dumb nor will I deserve what happens. Sorry if I sound on the defensive but it`s frustrating when I`m in a particular geographic situation that makes such antics necessary and I don`t see why I can`t do the tune and breakin from the dealer. Even if I have to drive around aimlessly for 500 miles to come back to the same dealer to check things are still okay I`ll do that. I`ll buy an owner`s manual to see how a Harley engine should be broken in, for that 500 miles or whatever, or ask the dealer unless you have a basic procedure to give me an idea what to plan for. Again I`ll simply do it around the dealer for a couple days, wasting gas but any ride`s a good ride and what better way to waste money than riding around burning gas on a Harley, before heading on the highway at steady cruising speeds which must be what you mean by the open road.

Regarding my question about your comment not to let the dealer reflash if there`s non-Harley parts....I only meant that there ARE no non-Harley parts. I understand why you`d recommend that IF I had a V&H exhaust or a Woods cam or somethying. I`m getting a Screamin Eagle Stage I or II, probably with the SE muffler someday if not now, but maybe you`d heard me ask someone earlier how they liked V&H and if its better than SE. Anyway yes I`ll keep that in mind. Now that I think of it though, it would be smarter to get the SE mufflers along with the Stage II so I only have to do one re-map instead of two. Or I get the TMax which apparently accounts for changes as you do them?

The TMax sounds really really good for someoen like me who never modifies anything or doesn`t want to tinker and just wants reliability (though do love torque and power hence the 103 kit if I`m already having to buy/install a piston and cylinder so its only incrementally more costly at this point), but if I simply do a re-map if he can`t get a TMax in time which he likely can`t or if he`s not comfortable with installing them, it`s good to know a good tune can be or should be permanent.

 

This will be my last post on this thread.

If you are going to 103", have your cylinders bored to fit a set of cast SE flat top pistons. The H-D big bore kits are not "part matched" and while you could get a set that is properly fitted, you could just as easily get a set that is not. You could get a set where the cylinder bore is at the outer limits of the specs and a set of pistons on the inner limits of the specs resulting in a noisy motor that consumes oil.

Do not try to break in the motor on your trip, two up and loaded. You can seat the rings in a 50 mile ride with some strong third and fourth gear pulls to 3500 rpms and decelerating. It takes heat and compression to seal the rings; get the motor up to operating temps and run through the gears, keep rpms under 3500 for the first 500 miles but accelerate under WOT in third and fourth to 3500 and decelerate. Do not break the motor in on synthetic oil; use any good conventional 20W50 oil. You should also dump the oil and refresh after the first 100 miles to remove any break in debris from the lubricating system. I make it a practice to dump the oil again and replace the filter at 500 miles and again a 1000; can you do that on your road trip?

In my experience, a new motor, or top end, is all good for 100-200 miles and then stuff starts happening; a wierd noise appears, the motor becomes hard to start, the motor runs rough or doesn't idle, oil starts to appear in places where it shouldn't, etc. The other thing to remember is that the dealer must remove and reinstall unrelated components to do the top end work, i.e., exhaust system, fuel tank, ignition coil, top motor mount, fuel delivery system and cables, etc. Any one of these components that is not properly reinstalled could become a problem on the road. An exhaust flange nut loosens and falls off, a pushrod adjustor nut comes loose, the fuel supply line starts to leak, etc.; stuff just happens and you and your partner are stuck on the side of the road and the vacation becomes a bad dream. I don't care where you live or how far you are from the dealer; it doesn't matter. It is worth the extra time to take a couple of shake down rides and put a at least 150-200 miles on the bike before you take off on your road trip. You, anyone, would be foolish not to take the time to be reasonably confident that the bike was truly road worthy before starting out on an extended road trip.

Sounds like you are set on the factory ECM "flash" as a tune in lieu of a fuel management system. There is no substitute for a proper tune but the flash should be OK with a Stage I motor but it won't address the lean fuel settngs required by the EPA. A proper tune, or a TMax auto tune would be so much better. Most guys install the TMax by themselves, it is quite easy and very straight forward.

BTW, I was referring to cruising at 80-85mph. Most of the five speed bikes, with stock gearing, are turning approximately 2900rpms at 70mph and are lazily loping along at that speed; 80mph is about 3300 and 85 about 3500. A bone stock 88", five speed Harley can run all day between 3000 and 3500 rpms and it's not even working hard. Bump displacement to 95", add some cams, head work and tune and it works even less.

Whatever you do, hope it all goes your way.