I hope the oil cooler the dealer's installing is a good one. May simply be the Harley one if there is a Harley one (must be in their Screamin Eagle catalogue somewhere). I've been running Harley mineral 20-50 but ironically must last purchase before she blew was a pile of synthetic SE stuff in an effort to keep it cool as suggested by a dealer whom I told of my detonation/pinging issues. He told me as well that I should be using 5th gear, which was the 1st time I heard that, but by then I'd arleady been to California and almost back. I did try it in 5th for some time but it pinged anyway so I went back to 6th, still unsure what was true or who to listen to (Harley manual saying shift to 6th at 90 kph or 55 mph, and a couple dealers that said anything over 2000 rpm wasn't lugging it if cruising implying my 2150 was even safer....which it wasn't).

I saw the piston finally and 'looks like a woodchuck went at it' pretty much sums it up. There was carbon builtup in the valve cutouts, though he didn't seem to think that was abnormal they were half filled which can't be right. He maintains it was pre-ignition and not detonation, I think because the cylinder isn't scratched as I expected....it's actually deformed out of round which in tech school he was told is the result of pre-ignition. He recalled seeing it in a video they showed. He thinks it started at the top, above the ring land I presume, and then broke away down through the ring lands on that side which is where all the damage was contained. The rings were a twisted stretched mess from my brief view of them.

Parts arrive tomorrow/Tuesday so I should be on the.....I mean, I should be PROPERLY BREAKING IT IN on Tuesday or Wednesday! Presently just starting my vacation in my car which though I feel caged is still better than a good day of work.

I confirmed that he is upgrading the ECM with an instrument up to Stage II for ignition timing. There's a bit of a communication barrier as he's in Quebec, but I think I was clear about the ECM upgrade to Stage II for timing, and he did say its some codes or something from Harley for Stage II which is separate from the V&H FuelPack.

Sometimes I wonder if a 110 would have been the way to go, but correct me if I'm wrong, I heard on this very forum that the 103 has proven more reliable when talking their standard kits vs using other companies components. I had also thought the 110 required a stroker crank but that's probably inaccurate. But the 110 kit was another $1000 or something, like $2500 with pipes vs $1270 with pipes for the 103 Stage II. I imagine there's less and less bang for the buck as one goes to 103 Stage III and Stage IV.

Finally does anyone know if the Ultra Limited models come with the Stage II with 255 cam or are they just the 103 ci engine with a tamer cam and the air intake with normal exhaust like my 96 ci Classic had (maybe even the air intake's the same as my Classic if the exhaust is the same). I'm pretty sure I seen specs on a 103 and it wasn't much more powerful than the 96, which makes me think it must not have had the Stage II treatment. I saw some CVO's perhaps on the highway to Montreal, one an electric orange, a candyapple red, an apple green but every one was BEAUTIFUL rolling works du art. I'm talking thick glossy paint around the rider side of the fairing around the guage clusters. Does the Limiteds come with that or only the $$$ CVO's? Can one do that to their lesser steed by removing theirs and painting it several coats even with Kryon plastic paint? I don't expect results like theirs but I bet it would still look great. With the 103 ci SE Stage II in there, the tourpack rack I added last year, and some other doodads, I wonder just how close I am to having what is basically an Electra Glide Ultra Limited.....heated seat notwithstanding, if they come with that, or 80w 4 speaker stereo since my 40w 2 speaker one is fine because my wife doesn't care and I presume the other 2 speakers and resulting doubled power is only for the passenger. I know you'd get effective surround sound then but on the road would you really hear the sound from the rear speakers or would the air rushing around you minimize what you hear from them? Point being, other than those 2 speakers, heated seat and ABS brakes, with the 103 ci engine would I only have to add cruise control, front lower fairing, and a driver backrest or something to essentially have an EG Ultra Limited?

 

Don't know about your Ultra comparison, but, regarding the painted inner fairing, HD sells them painted for xtra $$$. I have a vivid black street glide and had a Fire Red Pearl inner fairing put on it, It really looks nice, to me anyway and thats all that counts. I see a lot of painted inner fairings around, but not many painted a different color than the rest of the bike.

 

I read half of this thread and then spot read the rest so I apologize if this was previously addressed. I noticed that you put that you used regular gas...that would have a lot to do with your noises and could cause failure in parts of your motor. The manual strictly says no less than 91 octane. I know that I (meaning the OL) have used less than 91 octane in the Silverado SS which is strictly premium, and the entire valvetrain sounded and ran horribly...that was only on 1 or 2 tanks.

I know you decided to go with a tuner...I will say this anyway though. The Harley is not tuned to run optimally from the factory. Even if you are leaving your bike completely stock, a dyno tune is heavily recommended.

 

Maybe that's what I saw on the road today that almost made me faint behind the wheel - fire red pearl. WOW was it stunning. I wish I had an entire bike that colour! If your cockpit looks like that, it must be stunning to sit behind and draw lots of looks. That's a bit too rich for my blood, especially now after dumping $2000 in labour and parts into the bike for the Stage II kit, performance mufflers, oil cooler and tuner (plus I'm considering biting the bullet even more and getting cruise control added, and a new rear tire, all this stuff adds up), but good to know painting hte inner fairings is common which means there must be lots of good advice on paint type and process to follow. Personally I'd put blue to match my bike, but on an all black bike like yours, I bet the red fairing would look sharp....hard to say without looking. But those bikes I saw today finally made me understand why someone would spend $40,000 on a bike. They're basically rolling works of art, even more than a regular Harley. Not to say I'll ever own one, but I can aspire to making mine look as close as I can to it, with a smaller 103 version which is good enough I'd say. It was really inspiring and motivating to continue improving my bike that's for sure.

....I could also sell mine used and buy either a new inner painted one off Harley or find a used one (as if anyone would sell it but its possible if they're going to a different color for instance).

Another option is to go to the StreetGlide/RoadGlide type bullet fairing vs the batwing. Not sure yet which I like better, a tough call for sure, but those would look fantastic painted inside too, with the bonus of having storage in the fairing and not having entire freaking fairing turn with the handlebars which must make maneuvering around town a lot easier.

 

No problem - that is a helluva lot of stuff to read through. I used premium all through the states, but in Canada I was following the advice from a couple dealers that said to use regular with booster. That's because with the economic woes of late, combined with high gas prices, people don't buy premium much anymore so the regular is fresher so best to put octane booster in fresh gas than run old premium. So why didn't I continue doing that in the states? Part of the reason's probably because a part of me wanted to believe that dealer since premium is sometimes 8-10 cents more a L or 40 cents more a gallon, but in the states the difference is half that and I just put in premium. I know there's something in there that doesn't make sense but that's what I did. I kind of figured it probably doesn't matter as long as if I run regular I use the booster which is from Harley for that purpose (since premium shouldn't need boosting unless one has higher than stock compression) and it was endorsed by a couple Harley dealers. The bike always ran and sounded good other than occasional pinging, I never got the sounds you mentioned, and actually when up in Northern Canada where it was much cooler, like 15 degrees C perhaps for maybe a couple months to work and back so only 5-10 minutes each way with only a couple short 20 minute rides and one longer 2 hour ride, it wasn't pinging at all even on regular with NO booster. In fact the bike ran great and no sounds whatsoever. I guess I figured if I don't hear the pinging it's not doing any damage, but at the time I didn't know you can't hear pre-ignition, and its all making sense now. I bet running the regular without booster in cooler weather wasn't detonating, which encouraged its use, but it may have been causing silent pre-ignition which you therefore can't even back off or stop to prevent since you don't know it's happening....which the dealer says did the deed (not detonation). If so then I learned a lot here at a cost, that pre-ignition can't be heard and when they recommend premium its not necessarily for detonation that you can hear in the form of pinging, its probably for pre-ignition that simply blows you piston apart....or at least gives one side of it that 'wrong end of a woodchuck' look. Probably my running 6th speed at 60 mph didn't help matters either, leading to carboning up which as I understand will glow (or a plug or exhaust valve glows) and ignites the mixture well before the plug fires. So yes I used regular without booster at one time, up North in cool temps, BUT you said it had a lot to do with the noises which is incorrect. I think it probably led to my piston issue due to silent pre-ignition, but I only used regular when I wasn't hearing any pinging at all....ready with the booster in case I heard it of course, but I never did so I thought all was fine in there. Yes I feel silly now, no doubt, but so often manufacturers say to use premium and it just doesn't matter....like my SDI Ski-Doo 600 HO. It's a 2004 with 'use premium only' but the same motor in 2005 doesn't require it because it was only a precaution in 2004 that they realized they didn't need. It too had a DET sensor so I figured any DET it has due to low octane would be corrected and noticed by me when it retards the timing. If I felt this happening I would have considered using premium but either its so seamless you can't tell, or it just doesn't need premium (the snowmobile). That's a 2 stroke but after this experience with pre-ignition apparently, it is not a good practice and certainly not worth it in my Harley or in my snowmobile. One can get away with it for some time, apparently, but eventually it will end badly....in the Harley's case, it didn't even take very long compared to my 20,000 km vacation where I WAS running either premium or regular with booster (and still getting pinging off and on). Maybe 300 km on unboosted regular with zero pinging or sounds and it broke the piston. It probably goes without saying, but no I'll never cheap out on my fuel again! In my defense I think you can see how getting pinging with premium or boosted regular in much of my trip in warmer weather made that requirement lose all credibility with me when running regular in cooler weather resulted in no pinging. What I didn't realize because I hadn't read that article differentiating between detonation and pre-ignition, was that pre-ignition can severely damage a motor in only a few revolutions, and you don't even hear it happening. Your motor just blows. Scary! Scary enough to just get premium even if it detonates with it, because though the premium may not be preventing detonation which an engine can live with for some time, it may still be preventing pre-ignition which is even worse (and you just have to have faith about that because its silent).

I find it amazing Harley wouldn't tune these expensive bikes to run optimally. Yes I was considering a dyno tune and a flow controller even if I had returned it to stock after hearing Harley runs these things lean to meet EPA regulations. But the dealer said that what's getting rave reviews for them is an air intake, slipons and a V&H FuelPack setup...better power than a Stage I 103 ci withOUT slipons and FuelPack I presume. I could only presume that a Stage II 103 ci which comes with an air intake, combined with slipons and V&H FuelPack, will perform even better with the extra 120 cc and torque goes up with displacement nevermind with 'that cam', so it makes no sense that he meant the stock engine outperforms a similarly set up 103. Anyway the dealer talking about that setup made me think that if I go so far as get a fuel controller, I should really take advantage of its potential and open up the air intake, at which point you have to open up the exhaust, and, well now I have that plus a 103 ci with 255 cam. Should be fun but it'll never see another drop of regular, boosted or otherwise ever again (won't see 6th gear either unless I'm over 75 mph)!

 

This is an 11 page article from contact magazine on engine basics that appears authoritative. It delves into differences between detonation and pre-ignition, and mentioned the fact pre-ignition damages quickly and is silent. I've only skimmed through, reading what caught my eye, but am going to read more now that I have more time:

http://www.contactmagazine.com/Issue...ineBasics.html

Reading that article it really seems it was detonation, by his description of detonation damage breaking top and second ring lands, which is probably where mine started before wiping out ALL the ring lands and giving the beaver/woodchuck look. Pre-ignition is suspected when there's a hole burned in the piston, and the top of my piston wasn't melted (but chopped, over by the ring lands). I didn't look close enough to see if there was abrasion, but that might be hard to see, and visible more by a flat matte finish that isn't as glossy as the remainder of the piston top. So it may have been abraded microscopically as the article said, but I don't have microscopic vision unfortunately. Definately no melting or holes that's for sure. Also the spark plugs showed no signs of melting or splattering, of course given the piston condition. The author repeats several times how easily and often pre-ignition is blamed for what detonation did, and the confusion between the two failure modes. Eventually I'll post pictures of the piston and cylinder (though no scratches and only out-of-round so may not show much) after my vacation's over in 4 weeks.

One thing I think I forgot to mention was the spark plugs. The dealer looked at them and noted they were not running lean. He showed me one from another customers that was lean - and it was white around the insulator while mine was black. Rich if anything so Harley's lean settings for EPA may not be the culprit at all in this case. Yet if it was pinging/detonating, while running premium, maybe the premium all through the US required booster ON TOP OF the supposedly sufficient octane rating of the premium? Anyway I have to read that article some more to figure out why, if it wasn't running lean, it was detonating with premium gas. His bit about detonation causing heat and heat causing detonation is a bit too circular for my brain.

Also about engine oil - I'm running Harley mineral 20w50 (I think that's the weight of it) and was going Synthetic, but is Amsoil better? Maybe in summer I too should be running Redline 20-60 since my trips in Jul/Aug are likely to places like California or down the US east coast, though probably Colorado next summer. Yes I enjoy travelling in the States! I went a long time just travelling Canada but I've been everywhere more or less so had to expand my horizons. There's one heckuva lot of roads down there....and lots of nice scenery too, and I'm only just starting last year to California so through the NW states. I've been to NY state before, and it was beautiful through the Adirondack's and some of the Catskills if memory serves, but still just the tip of the iceberg.

 

You are talking about spending a fortune on this bike and then talked about saving a few bucks by putting Regular gas in it.

Folks really have to run the numbers when they get worried about the price of gas.

Just seems to me most could go a long, long way for many thousands of miles before even approching the money spent on a engine overhaul by trying to save on the --difference-- of the cost of gas.

But I have been guilty of this, a long time ago.

Traded in a perfectly good 77 Chevy Van for a 80 Datson B-210.

Run the numbers on almost everything you do.

 

Like I said - I ran premium (or boosted regular) my entire trip, premium all through the US and boosted regular in most of Canada due to what the two dealers suggested about old premium gas, and THAT'S when it pinged due presumably to high ambient temps. When up North and especially when it was into fall, pinging stopped, and didn't re-start even when on regular without booster. I actually am not 100% sure I was running regular up here now that I think of it, since premium's only 5 cents more a L so I probably was running premium. But whatever it was there was no pinging like the was on premium down south in the summer. Obviously if I knew this would happen when I wasn't hearing pinging I wouldn't have done it, if in fact I did run regular, but didn't think I needed to run the numbers since cost to fix damage didn't seem possible given there was no pinging. To me the worst was over for the engine, and I still think the damage was done down South while on premium, not up here on regular if that's what I ran. I see your point of course - its penny wise and pound foolish to save a couple bucks a fill if rising the engine. MY point is just that I didn't think I was risking the engine because I wasn't hearing pinging.

And I'm afraid I don't see the connection of all that to this!:

"Traded in a perfectly good 77 Chevy Van for a 80 Datson B-210"

Oh wait - I see. You traded in that 77 Chev just to save money on gas by buying a Datsun before running the numbers. That is, the Chev was better in every way but fuel efficiency. I tend to agree that too much stress is put on fuel efficiency, just to avoid the pain of filling up and paying double or triple which you would if comparing a VW TDI (I just went 950 km on 3/4 tank so am looking at probably going 1150 km given the 100 km per fuel guage graduation mark I've been getting between when it moved off full at 300 km and now at 1/4 tanks and 950 km....and that's only a 55 L tank, possibly 60 L when filled to the brim as I do to maximize range) to a pickup truck. The VW TDI being a diesel will be supremely long lived, spectacular fuel economy, easy to park and handles great its true, and being a wagon its halfway practical and can haul a relative lot. BUT its nowhere near as practical/useful as a 4x4 extended cab pickup truck which you can use to tow, put a cap on it and build a bed to store camping gear underneath, add a canoe or small boat rack on the roof, go through all kinds of terrain with 4x4 and 4 low, tons more ground clearance for going down really really bad roads, comfortable and way more powerful and where I live parking is a non-issue as is any better handling the car has over the perfectly acceptable modern pickup. The pickup can carry a full blown camper on the back as well. My point in that diatribe is that if one ran the 'numbers', with numbers being the value you get from capability/usefulness/versatility, have I really saved anything by getting a 60 mpg or whatever car? Yes I use the car for long trips where since my wife hates camping, and I don't have anything to tow, I suppose yes I legitimately made the right choice since I have an old 1995 (for parts but it runs) and a 2000 S10 ext cab 4x4 for my local truck needs. But many people should have a pickup instead of their little tin can 4 cylinder eco car given what they use it for when travelling, since they'll pay more for a hotel than what the pickup truck would in extra gas consumption if the pickup owner camped or better yet, slept on a platform in the pickup box under a cap like my Dad used to do taking us to Alaska or Newfoundland. Of course the car owner could camp but some people can't possibly fit everything in a small car that their wife would need to be sufficiently pampered. Of course now we're really off topic but I thought it was a similar example of not running the numbers and making a decision based solely on operating cost.

Another thing people do is pay $50k on a new vehicle to get 20 mpg vs an old 77 Chev that may have got 12 mpg BUT you could actually fix the 77 Chev on your own, vs in a $100/hour shop due to all the ABS and airbags and EFI and computers and sensors and plumbing the new ones have. The $1000 bill from the mechanic pays for a heckuva lot of miles even if you're getting 12 mpg. I know a guy that bought a Dodge van for $300, put a $300 head on it, and drove it for 5 years. When something more serious happened he just left it for a wrecker. $600 for 5 years. People pay $5000 just to the government in tax when they register a vehicle in some Canadian provinces even on used vehicles. That's not including the $40,000 for the vehicle itself. People get new to have no problems and to get better safety and fuel efficiency.....makes sense, except new vehicles with all their electronics and gizmos seem to be in the shop an awful lot too. How long would it take to make back $45,000 - $600 = $44,400 just by getting 20 mpg vs 12 mpg? Safety is priceless I realize, and of course it's way nicer driving a new vehicle and life is short, but I'm just sayin.....

 

You can and will, more that likely sooner or later, answer most of your concerns by getting a Tunner like the TTS Mastertune.

Study the instructions. I printed them out and put in a book form to read and study.

Most FI systems work pretty much the same way, weather Auto Or Bike or whatever.
I think its a Bosch system.

Learn how one works learn all really. That Check Engine Light is on just about all vihecials.

Anyway when you can understant the ralationships of the different Sensors--Only about 6-7 of them and their-- Logic--What they do and how they arrive at the amount of fuel to put in---

Piece of cake.

Because then you can actually hook this thing up and while riding or after riding (for me I can't do two things at once any more) you can see everythiong goin on with the engine.

Then make adjustments--The understanding part--- to make it just right.

 

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