My head is going to explode with all the stuff I have learned on this site. I've "heard" about, read about Darkhorse cranks in many posts. It was until Dalton posted the web addy I decided I'd look at thier site. Geesus, heres another shop basically right in my yard. Newton is about 40-50 miles from where I live Same as Revolution, they are about 50 miles away. This is why I am starting to hate my local dealers. I have been pecking around about doing something with this bike since I got it and I end up on here finding many places that build, machine do work that many others are using and they are all very close by to me.

I just want to THANK all of you guys. You know who you are that have seen me posting about this for over a year already. I am and have learned bunches.

Right now my meter is pointed at a 103 kit with cams and head work. I just need to sell myself on who and find a local I feel can do it and not screw it up.

mps

 

I went through the same thing nearly two years ago -- I ended up with a HQs 103 in my 07 SG now have HQs 107 in my 08 RG --- my SG was self destructing (due to poor paint and body work) the only thing on that bike after almost 24k miles was the HQs motor still running strong--what ever you do make sure you do your research and get parts that compliment each other --that was the mantra when I was getting motor work and it still holds true today -- I don't think you can go wrong with the reputable kits such as HQs, S&S, AMS 105, etc.; I like the personal touch with HQs. I'm saving for a HQs 120 and hopefully that will cure my motor addiction

 

Hey Lyn,

When you go the 120 route, keep in touch. It will be nice to see another one of these beasts on the road. When you are ready to take the leap, talk to John Dahmer at Darkhorse. A no nonsense guy, but really is very sharp. He will do the case boring, timken conversion and set up the crank, no matter which one you choose to use. He will also install the crank and seal up the cases as they have a way to now ship your cases back with the crank installed and a way to imobilize the crank during shipment to prevent damage.

mps1168 - Yep, lots of good stuff to be had that a lot of times is in your backyard. As Lyn indicated, go with a proven set of components that work well together. In his, and my case, we are HQ addicts due to the performance, reliability and also the people that we deal with. 18,000 miles on my build this summer, all over the US and it runs great.

 

A. Did I ever say HQ heads are CNC'd? No. Read my past post, better yet I'll quote it for you:

Undersquare engines produce torque sooner? You got this info where? Again thats a big misconception. GEARING and cubic displacement is what gets you twisting force(torque).

Before you think I have an "atitude" issue you should probably reread some of the posts from some of the other members here. You tell me who in all honestly has an atitude issue.

If I read something I dont agree with, I'm going to put my 2 cents in. Thats part of the reason why we have these technical forums.

 

In my 20= years of auto/performce work ive made many mistakes without doing all my homework.

2 years ago after 2-3 no so good attempts at my bike builds I started calling around, when I found HQ they spoke my language, they were straight up, no BS and live up to there promises. there are probably many good places to deal with, with many satified customers in here offering their .2 cents, but the HQ stuff works very well for me.

i like a shop that covers ALL aspects of the build, in house Head work AND cams to match with realworld experiance to back it up.

 

I could not afford the 120 this time around -- you can bet when my dollars get bigger I will follow in you and PhilM's footsteps -- Dark Horse is the only way I will do it -- I have not had a chance to get any miles on this 107 -- going to try and get at least 100 miles in tomorrow to dial the auto tuner in--there are three bikes in my club that are calling me out -- two 113's and a SE 110 --- Sunday it's on

 

SA: This is from your earlier post in this thread:

"And being that I currently work on a foreign autos right now it has been quite a few years since I last laid hands on a HAND ported HQ head."

Your post was edited, but why capitalize the word "HAND" if not to at least infer that they were no longer hand ported?

As for undersquare motors, see the Chevy 427 compared to the 454; the HD 88, using the same cylinders, pistons, heads, etc. as the 96, but the 96 makes significantly more torque with the only difference being the stroke.

Sure, gearing effects how the engine torque is applied (see the '09 touring vs. '08 sprocket change to lower the gearing), and, obviously, displacement can be and frequently is increased by increasing the stroke.

As for your attitude, Dalton and PhilM are extraordinarily helpful members of the Forum (i.e. travelling to other members' homes/garages to assist with builds, PM'ing members with helpful information, etc.) who have a lot of current experience with various builds and do a lot of their own tuning--and you had no trouble dissing them because they have a different opinion than yours. Granted, you weren't quite as harsh with them as you were with Hillside, but out of line IMO nevertheless.

 

OK, that post was first posted around 10:30am yesterday, about a half hour later it was edited in which I added the very bottom sentence. Nothing to do with the capitolized "Hand". And I was directing that capitolized word to Phil to make a point that someone with a trained eye can tell the difference immedietly. Something I don't think he could do respectfully. His post I was making a rebuttal too had quite a few insinuations that to me were pretty disrepsectful from this standpoint. So if I portray having an atitude, I think I warrent it here. His post on the other hand adds what useful info? You say Im out of line with them, how about them with me on a few posts? And when it comes to helping forum members there are a # of forum members that live close to me Im in contact with on help with their builds outside of this forum. There is alot you don't see online necessarily, but that honestly gives you no right to make silly judgements one way or the other. But regardless, if wrong info is given, im going to make a point to debate it and if needed will back it up with proven points and links if necessary. Opinions on grey areas are fine(like say Hillsides practice to bore out a 88/95" HD jug well past stated factory limitations), but some info that I may find to be completely wrong(like the undersquare/oversquare debate we are having)on which engine produces more torque.

Now lets get back to a useful debate. That being the 88 vs 96 HD motor and their torque differences. Real simple. Which engine has more DISPLACEMENT? The 96? OK then you prove my point further. The 96" motor has greater displacement, thats the reason for the increase in torque. So, a very poor comparison on your part. Want a better apples to apples comparison?

How about comparing a stock 96" HD motor with a 4 3.75" stroke to say a "stock" 96" with a 4" stroke and a greater bore(like mine which technically is a 97" motor)to compensate for the shorter stroke to around 3.9" bore? I can garentee you the torque will be very similiar then. Unfortunately we dont have a stock 96" with a shorter stroke and larger bore for this theoretical comparison. But the results will favor my point 100%.

Now I will add one thing here. An undersquare engine can produce its maximum "twisting force" at a bit lower rpm than say an oversquare engine of equal proportion. But it will not produce MORE torque overall. In the case of the 2 common Harley strokes of 4" and 4 3/8" though were are talking at MOST maybe a couple hundred rpm difference in how much lower the stroker will be able to accomplish that. And its only going to be by a few pounds as well. And in honestly a small primary gearing change will more than overcome that for those who run a shorter 4" stroke. But at the same time getting all the benefits of the shorter stroke([again assuming identical displacement between and undersquare/oversquare engine]which is reduced piston speed, reduced side wall loading,vibration and crank/rod/ wrist pin wear etc etc, increased potential for better head breathing, less valve shrouding etc etc the list can go on and on in favor of the oversquare engine setup)with a larger bore combo.

 

SA: I will finish connecting the dots on the "undersquare engine makes more torque" point of my previous post. HD offers a BB kit for the 88 that creates a 95" displacement motor. So there is 1 cubic inch difference between that BB 88/95 and a 96" motor--the stock 96 makes a lot more torque than the BB 88/95, and it's not due to that extra inch everything else remaining the same. So, stroking that 88 provides significantly greater torque than increasing the cylinder bore.

"The few HQ heads I have had a chance to play with were very similiar in design to Branch flowmetrics heads. Both places had very "pretty" work with polished chambers,but used overly large exhaust valves and the ports were too large. I mean, they still made much better power than stock TC heads, but I felt they were better suited for a very high revving high hp engine setup with a very narrow(high) rpm band."

In fact, HQ does very little work on the exhaust side of the head, and I have no idea what you mean by the "overly large exhaust valves" remark. The torque curves I've seen for their builds tend to be very flat (not the narrow power band you mention); if anything, the really big inch builds at 120" could make more hp with a larger intake valve. And most HQ builds use comparatively mild HQ cams with only .575" or .580" lift on the intake, and .530 on the exhaust; not the .615"/.585" int/exh and higher lift cams seen on other builds. Frankly, they aren't designed for high rpms--don't know why you would think they were.

And to come full circle, if Zippers or Axtell or S&S, or R&R, etc. could produce the same torque curves with square or oversquare engines as the stroked/4.375" crank motors do, they'd be selling them and saving customers the cost of a $1,000 crank and splitting the cases on the 88's.

 

I've learned not to argue with a fool in a crowd because the crowd won't be able to tell which one of us is the fool!