we`ve installed tons of PC`s,never had a prob,just getting wet aint going to hurt them(unless their not plugged in all the way,or your riding under water!)

 

I just ordered the Stage I kit from Fuel Moto for my 2010 Ultra Classic for $689 which includes the Jackpot Dyno Tuned mufflers, High Flow air filter and the PC5. I went with the PC5 because of all the positive things I've heard about them on the forum. The PCV came mapped for my stock headpipe and mufflers. Installed the Jackpots this evening on my catless stock headpipe and they sound great. Huge improvement over the stock mufflers. Didn't have time to install the PCV or the air cleaner tonight but plan to finish tomorrow after work. Just changing the mufflers and removing the cat has made a world of difference in the way the bike runs. Hoping for even more improvement when the high flow and PCV are installed.

 

FIY Removal of cats and use of 02 sensors will cause a issue. the pipe needs the cat to stop reversion. This has been covered in spades on other forums where they get much deeper into tuning.

Being that we tune and have seen dozens of PC fail as well if you really understand how a PC works, you come to understand why so many use the TTS ( or SERT). Not getting into the cost thing , you bought a bike and changed the set up, now it is time to get the performance , reliability, and tunability ( spelling??) out of the bike. TTS does that all without exception.

The stock ecm runs on KPA the PC does not use the input and you are not even close to getting it correct. It may be tuned for that load range however you can have the engine at 2500 rpm from 20-100 KPA. The pc only tunes at what RPM and TPS . So if the engine load was 60 KPA so that is where it's tuned not under or over that point.

If the PC is so good then why did Power Commander spend so much money to come out with power vision. Easy answer they know that the system is not up to par with others on the market. Maybe they will get the issue with power vision sorted out and who knows it may be a very good option.. Time will tell.


Had a 03 bike on the dyno Sat. Basic 95 inch woods 6 cam with the PC. Many tuners do not data log when tuning a PC ( they should) however I was able to watch this thing ping and ping and ping. The issue is that the ECM has a old stock program. Fuel in 03 is not what we have today. Did the best I could with it. perfect example of the pc not using the map sensor and not being able to control the ecm. It really needed a new flash in the ECM or better yet the correct tuner and the issue would have been so simple to correct.

 

Steve;

PC5s don't use the O2s. They come with generic Wide Bands to center the 'map', with a goofy 'auto tune' module. It's like a Tmax that's piggybacked onto the ECM.....

It's all about pulling the cat cores and running whatever... folks here have NO idea that removing the core will allow the O2 sensors to 'crosstalk, because they are an INCH apart... so we just remove the O2s, too.

I agree that PCs and PC5s are bogus unless the bike is pre 07.

My GOOD friend Kirby likes em, but it's time for me to work him over a bit on that.

I DO feel they will work the bugs out of the Power Vision... and all the guys HERE on this forum will love them for their Stage 1s. Which is how it should be.

Fuel Moto will have Vision up and going and all will be good. If one is doing engine work for power... TTS all the way. If it's just a STage 1??? Power Vision will fill the bill. PC3s; PC5; DFOs, Fuelers, etc are ALL bogus for a bike that comes with a Delphi ECM that CAN run in closed loop. Why would ANYBODY run a stage 1 bike NOT in closed loop... THAT is the question.

Folks on this forum are NOT wrenches for the most part and simply have to trust folks to do it right, or go with the crowd kinda thing.

The crowd here should move to Vision... that's MY thoughts on the matter. For folks that want POWER and are going with BBkits, etc... THEY need a TUNE either by a PRO using TTS or SEPST. or even SERT, or by investing heavily (time wise) and learning to self tune with TTS.

Otherwise... it just KILLS me that folks with bikes that HAVE O2s... are willing to remove them to run 1990 technology.

And to those that don't know about FI... here is the quick and dirty...

AFter07, MOCO used a 'closed loop' system. The bike uses the O2s to adjust the amount of fuel sprayed into the cylinders. The bike ALSO uses the spark plugs to look for ping... ion sensing. The bike can look for the load put upon the engine using a MAP sensor. These things work in conjunction to make fuel injection work. With a tuner like TTS... one can adjust all of these settings either during a Pro Tune, or by using a program called v-tune. SEPST is similar but has a problem or two.

Now with PC3 and PC5... one REMOVES the O2 sensor from the bike... so now the bike can NOT fine tune the fuel delivery based upon conditions and crap fuel being used RIGHT THAT MINUTE.... it is called 'fuel control' and the PCs throw that away. The wide bands on a PC5 do NOT have fuel control. Those O2 sensors are used to make adjustments to the fuel based upon the MAP installed and is NO WHERE instantaneous like fuel control. Ping... a bike can ping right? Well using the Delphi and having good fuel control AND Ion sensing... the bike can STOP most ping. Put a PC on there and .... ping is BAAAAAACCCCCKKKKK!!!!! No longer will ping control be automatically controlled... That piggy back system kills that. SO... the way one deals with that is DROWN the engine with fuel and keep timing pulled a bit.

A LOT of tuners like PCs. One may ask 'why'. I will tell you why... it's about time and money. A dyno shop that does PCs can tune those piggybacks 'live'. By live... that means that while the bike is up on the dyno... the tuner can input fuel and spark on the fly while the bike is running. Ends up quick and decent... except for losing all the fuel control and load functions. A TTS tune, and SEPST, SERT, etc... for right now, is NOT live... one gathers data on the dyno, stops and makes changes and loads those changes into the bike, and then runs again to check data... over and over a few to quite a few times. This kind of tuning takes TIME and expertise. More expense..., but better results

Inside of the MOCO ECM is a MAP... which is a guide to how that computer is to function in different situations... fuel; load; Throttle;temperature, etc. A PC is a PIGGYBACK system that HAS to use the internal map, and then trick the outputs into doing things that they were not programmed for. A TTS, Sepst, Power vision... these actually write NEW instructions into the bikes computer and the bike acts accordingly... no tricked out signals.

A stock bike is lean (not enough fuel)... really lean actually. But a piggyback will make the bike usually too rich (too much fuel... sooty exhausts). Being Fat is almost as bad as being lean... ASK all the PC guys what their mileage is. My personal 107 that has 105hp and 120tq ..... gets 40-45 mpg. I ride 18-20k a year and it DOES make a difference...

I, personally, am a dedicated DIY tuner that uses TTS and a Twin Scan with WEGO to self tune all my bikes.

What do YOU want?

 

http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/tec...rks/index.html

Quick overview on FI.

 

A PC can adjust exactly what? On the PC3, that I had, I think I could do fuel and timing?

Here is a list of what one can adjust with a TTS Mastertune: (as quoted by Steve Cole the designer of TTS Mastertune and SERT)

User adjustable items for MT7 Lambda Calibrations

Main Lambda table
VE Front Cylinder
VE Rear Cylinder
PE Lambda
Warmup Enrichment
Cranking Fuel
Accel Enrichment
Decel Enleanment
Spark Advance Front Cylinder
Spark Advance Rear Cylinder
PE Spark Advance
Spark Temperature Correction
Closed Throttle Spark Advance Front Cylinder
Closed Throttle Spark Advance Rear Cylinder
Adaptive Knock Retard
Idle RPM
IAC Warmup Steps
IAC Crank to Run
IAC Crank Steps
Throttle Blade Control
Engine Displacement
Injector Size
MAx Knock Retard
RPM Limit
Knock Control
EITMS
PE Mode
Primary Ratio
Speedo Adjustment
Active Exhaust
Active Intake
Automatic Compression Release


User adjustable items for MT8 Lambda Calibrations

Main Lambda table
VE Front Cylinder
VE Rear Cylinder
PE Lambda
Warmup Enrichment
Cranking Fuel
Accel Enrichment
Decel Enleanment
Spark Advance Front Cylinder
Spark Advance Rear Cylinder
PE Spark Advance
Spark Temperature Correction
Closed Throttle Spark Advance Front Cylinder
Closed Throttle Spark Advance Rear Cylinder
Adaptive Knock Retard
Idle RPM
IAC Warmup Steps
IAC Crank to Run
IAC Crank Steps
EGR Effect Front Cylinder
EGR Effect Rear Cylinder
Throttle Blade Control
Minimum TPS for Baro Correction
Engine Displacement
Injector Size
Skip Fire Mode IAC Offset
Max Knock Retard
RPM Limit
Knock Control
EITMS
PE Mode
Primary Ratio
Speedo Adjustment
Camshaft Selector
Active Exhaust
Active Intake
Automatic Compression Release

Also the TTS base calibrations all have many things adjusted/tuned that you cannot get from any other tuner, so if you start with an HD base calibration your loosing all of these as well. These changes are all copyrighted just as is all our software and you agree to abide by the copyright laws by using our software package and calibrations.

 

Hey Truk, giving you warning , HA HA like you would take it anyways. But I made a few true comments about how poor the PC system is and I got a bancation on another site as dyno jet got pissy LMAO .. they did not want to hear the real facts. Funny how so many guys buy them and they you see them all over the net looking for a free map to run there bike. A map for the PC is the number one thing in the EFI sections that I see. Well 98% of the time they are worth just what you paid for them ...... nothing. Have seen where buy this unit we give you a tuned map just load and ride. Funny the huge portion of those are not even in advanced mode, single afr for front and rear. Heck the stock program is closer than that.

Maps are like finger prints every one is different and needs to be adjusted to work with YOUR parts. Injectors do not all flow the same, fuel systems do not all put out the same psi , charging system vary( they control the injectors, pumps etc) and we know how accurate and repeatable the power on stock bikes are so how can anyone say that here is map that is ready to go. Really it should be this will get the bike started and then take it to a tuner. But hey it helps sales for those guys.


In a nut shell a tuner that works with the stock ECM as a reprogram is the correct and best way to go. Piggy back units just do not cut it on todays bikes when you can buy the "right" tuner.

Truk covered what you can do with the TTS PC well they can almost now get cold start up to run for a short time HA HA ... kinda like buying a 8 track player for your new CVO 110, .

 

Hey Steve... Thanks for the warning! Like I WOULD take it!!! HAHA.

I do NOT see Dyno Jet getting awfully POed at me. DJ makes some GREAT products. And... it is my understanding that for Metric Bikes they do good.

The bottom line is this.... if the PC line of tuners, as used on MOCO products was all that... DJ would have NEVER came up with the Vision.

The Vision, just by being offered, substantiates EVERYTHING I have been preaching. DJ cannot 'eat their own' so to speak... but offering the Vision means that they, too, have finally 'drank the wurk truk Kool Aid' and KNOW adjusting BY USING THE ECM is the way to go. Jamie will have the Vision product line all ironed out for folks soon.

Most guys here do not know that even though our bikes have 1909 technology built right in... we have the most sophisticated control unit offered on ANY bike. MOCO products use AUTOMOTIVE technology. Metrics use motorcycle technology.... BIG DIFFERENCE! Our ECM is the 'how' on why MOCO can still offer an air cooled bike, when all others converted to one kind of cooling system or another.

 

I started with Vance and Hines slip-ons with no other mods. Bike ran fine...no popping on decel, etc. Decided to finish the stage 1 with dynojet pcv and stage 1 ac from fuelmoto. FuelMoto will map the pcv specific for your set up. Bike runs flawless. I honestly thought I would feel a bit more pulll from the extra hp but not that big of a difference. One thing that does stand out is the bike seems to idle better and is not as jumpy in 1st gear. Go with FuelMoto. Their service is great!

 

i'm runnin a PC3,07 flhtc,works great,set it up on my laptop with there maps,plugs look great,just lookin for a SE A/C NOW