Unedited: Adding a second relay to fix the dreaded click
#31
06-25-2012, 06:15 PM
I've done this to a couple of my personal vehicles, including a 78 Suburban, so I know it works. The difference in light output is very dramatic and well worth the $15 worth of relays, wire and connectors and the hour it took to do it.
#32
06-25-2012, 06:46 PM
Thinking about it in car terms might be easier to understand, or at least easier to explain.
Fire up your car and let it idle. turn on the headlights. Measure the voltage at the battery and it should be around 12.7 and up depending on several factors. While it's still running with the headlights on, pop one of the headlight plugs and measure voltage there. It is usually at least 1 volt lower than it is at the battery even on a new vehicle. The older the car, the lower the voltage getting to the headlights.
Follow the electron on it's path; from the battery, the voltage has to travel through smaller gauge wiring through a few connectors and through the firewall to the fuse block. It then has to go through the fuse block and more connectors as it travels through the headlight switch, then the dimmer switch, then it continues it's way back out to the headlights through even more connectors, the whole time travelling through 18gauge or smaller wire. By the time it reaches the headlights, the resistance of so many connectors, switches and the long length of small gauge wire all rob available current and voltage from it.
Bikes aren't much better, the voltage travels from the battery through circuit breakers, the ignition switch, out to the dimmer switch and back to the dash then out to the headlight. On mine it looks like 20g wire, too.
Now imagine much larger 12 gauge wire going directly from the battery to the headlights. It's like a large-diameter, high-flow path for the voltage to flow. The relay turns this path on and off in time with the original factory switch positions. Add a fuse close to the battery connection for safety against shorts and wire chafing. Now the relay and the 12g wire can allow up to 30 amps to flow to the headlights and the factory wiring only has to transmit less than 2 amps, just enough to trip the relay, which usually takes less than .3 amps. Make sure to ground the headlights to the frame with similar 12g wire to be sure you are taking full advantage of the setup.
Actually for a bike with only 1 headlight, 14 gauge wire would be suitable. Since I have duals, I plan to use 12 gauge.
Fire up your car and let it idle. turn on the headlights. Measure the voltage at the battery and it should be around 12.7 and up depending on several factors. While it's still running with the headlights on, pop one of the headlight plugs and measure voltage there. It is usually at least 1 volt lower than it is at the battery even on a new vehicle. The older the car, the lower the voltage getting to the headlights.
Follow the electron on it's path; from the battery, the voltage has to travel through smaller gauge wiring through a few connectors and through the firewall to the fuse block. It then has to go through the fuse block and more connectors as it travels through the headlight switch, then the dimmer switch, then it continues it's way back out to the headlights through even more connectors, the whole time travelling through 18gauge or smaller wire. By the time it reaches the headlights, the resistance of so many connectors, switches and the long length of small gauge wire all rob available current and voltage from it.
Bikes aren't much better, the voltage travels from the battery through circuit breakers, the ignition switch, out to the dimmer switch and back to the dash then out to the headlight. On mine it looks like 20g wire, too.
Now imagine much larger 12 gauge wire going directly from the battery to the headlights. It's like a large-diameter, high-flow path for the voltage to flow. The relay turns this path on and off in time with the original factory switch positions. Add a fuse close to the battery connection for safety against shorts and wire chafing. Now the relay and the 12g wire can allow up to 30 amps to flow to the headlights and the factory wiring only has to transmit less than 2 amps, just enough to trip the relay, which usually takes less than .3 amps. Make sure to ground the headlights to the frame with similar 12g wire to be sure you are taking full advantage of the setup.
Actually for a bike with only 1 headlight, 14 gauge wire would be suitable. Since I have duals, I plan to use 12 gauge.
#33
06-26-2012, 12:03 PM
Gunslingertom in a post above stated how he did it similar to that. He used a small screwdriver to remove the appropriate connector from the plastic housing of the multipost connector into the original relay and plugged that into the added relay. I didn't do it that way myself, I just unplugged the solenoid wire from the solenoid and plugged that into the new relay, then ran another wire from the new relay back to the solenoid.
Want to really bake your noodle with relays? Run a fused(25amp) 12g wire from your battery + up under your tank to the front of your bike. Get 2 relays and split the 12g wire into both relay's "30" tabs. Take each relay's "87" tab and run one to the headlight's low beam tab and the other relay's wire to the headlight's high beam tab, make sure to ground the third headlight tab. Now take 18g wire and connect the original headlight socket's low beam connector to one relay's "85" and the high beam connector to the other relay's "85" and ground both "86" tabs. You just added at least 1.5-2 volts more juice to the headlight which more than doubles it's brightness while reducing it's resistance. I plan to do this to my bike in the near future. It's an old trick from the 4wheeling days to get much more light out of the original headlights.
Want to really bake your noodle with relays? Run a fused(25amp) 12g wire from your battery + up under your tank to the front of your bike. Get 2 relays and split the 12g wire into both relay's "30" tabs. Take each relay's "87" tab and run one to the headlight's low beam tab and the other relay's wire to the headlight's high beam tab, make sure to ground the third headlight tab. Now take 18g wire and connect the original headlight socket's low beam connector to one relay's "85" and the high beam connector to the other relay's "85" and ground both "86" tabs. You just added at least 1.5-2 volts more juice to the headlight which more than doubles it's brightness while reducing it's resistance. I plan to do this to my bike in the near future. It's an old trick from the 4wheeling days to get much more light out of the original headlights.
#34
06-26-2012, 08:49 PM
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adding relays.
Maybe this can be made a sticky in the Evo section if a moderator deems it appropriate.
I figured we could use a thread about this since it seems like a frequently asked question. Many Evos seem to have an occasional problem known as the dreaded click. This is when you go to start the bike, but only get a "click" when you push the starter button instead of the starter engaging and turning over the engine. There are several different things that can cause the problem. Before going any farther into adding a second relay, you need to make sure that this is your problem.
Start by making sure your battery is not weak or going bad. Also make sure the contacts inside your starter solenoid are clean and not worn out. Make sure the solenoid plunger moves freely and is not stuck. Make sure all the original connections are clean and tight. Make sure your original starter relay is not going bad. If all this checks out and you still have the occasional dreaded click, read on...
From the factory, the battery current that closes the plunger on the starter solenoid has to travel through over a dozen connections and enough small gauge wire to wrap 2+ times around the bike. Every extra foot of wire and every connection in the way robs a little current from the solenoid and over time, this resistance increases from corrosion, crystallization of the wires and connections that work loose. Eventually this gets to the point that the solenoid just barely has enough current to do it's job, and it occasionally wont do it's job, hence the dreaded click.
Adding a second relay to the starting circuit will do two things for you: the first and most desirable benefit is feeding the solenoid the much needed current to do it's job well. The second, not-so-obvious benefit is lightening the load on the original starting circuit, making it's job easier which can help it last much longer.
Relays seem confusing, but they are actually pretty simple. Every relay I have seen has tabs marked 30, 87, 85 and 86. Think of it as a remotely-controlled switch. Tabs 30 and 87 are the tabs you want to turn on/off and the other two tabs, marked 85 and 86 are the side that senses when to turn the first two tabs on or off.
So when the relay has current going through 85 and 86, it turns "on" the current between 30 and 87. When 85 and 86 has no current through it, it will turn "off" the flow between 30 and 87. Make sense?
Since we are going to be playing with the starter, make absolutely sure the bike is in neutral and disconnect the battery before starting into this!
First, you need a relay. Just about any automotive-grade relay will do, just make sure it has at least a 30amp rating. Fog light relays will work just fine and are available inexpensively just about anywhere, including walmart. You will also need some wire; a few feet of 14/16 gauge multi-strand automotive wire will be perfect. You can also get fancy and use a relay pigtail plug harness, or just get some flat-blade type insulated crimp-on connectors as well as a crimper/stripper tool. You will also want an in-line fuse holder, 14/16g with at least a 20amp fuse. I used 5 female flat insulated connectors, one male flat connector and 2 ring terminals.
A picture says a thousand words, so here are two of them to depict the connections you need to make:
After making all the connections, zip-tie the wires out of the way of moving or hot parts. I zip-tied the relay to the bottom of the existing starter relay under the right side cover, just under it.
Now re-connect the battery and put your bodywork back together and you're done. Now when you push the starter button, the factory circuit tells the added relay to turn on, sending more current to the solenoid than the original system was capable of. The bike starts and when you let off the button, the added relay turns off, like the factory circuit did originally.
There are other ways to do the same thing with the same results. If anyone else has any helpful advice or schematics to add, please do! Maybe we can make this the definitive dreaded click answer thread!
At the very least I hope this helps someone out there...
I figured we could use a thread about this since it seems like a frequently asked question. Many Evos seem to have an occasional problem known as the dreaded click. This is when you go to start the bike, but only get a "click" when you push the starter button instead of the starter engaging and turning over the engine. There are several different things that can cause the problem. Before going any farther into adding a second relay, you need to make sure that this is your problem.
Start by making sure your battery is not weak or going bad. Also make sure the contacts inside your starter solenoid are clean and not worn out. Make sure the solenoid plunger moves freely and is not stuck. Make sure all the original connections are clean and tight. Make sure your original starter relay is not going bad. If all this checks out and you still have the occasional dreaded click, read on...
From the factory, the battery current that closes the plunger on the starter solenoid has to travel through over a dozen connections and enough small gauge wire to wrap 2+ times around the bike. Every extra foot of wire and every connection in the way robs a little current from the solenoid and over time, this resistance increases from corrosion, crystallization of the wires and connections that work loose. Eventually this gets to the point that the solenoid just barely has enough current to do it's job, and it occasionally wont do it's job, hence the dreaded click.
Adding a second relay to the starting circuit will do two things for you: the first and most desirable benefit is feeding the solenoid the much needed current to do it's job well. The second, not-so-obvious benefit is lightening the load on the original starting circuit, making it's job easier which can help it last much longer.
Relays seem confusing, but they are actually pretty simple. Every relay I have seen has tabs marked 30, 87, 85 and 86. Think of it as a remotely-controlled switch. Tabs 30 and 87 are the tabs you want to turn on/off and the other two tabs, marked 85 and 86 are the side that senses when to turn the first two tabs on or off.
So when the relay has current going through 85 and 86, it turns "on" the current between 30 and 87. When 85 and 86 has no current through it, it will turn "off" the flow between 30 and 87. Make sense?
Since we are going to be playing with the starter, make absolutely sure the bike is in neutral and disconnect the battery before starting into this!
First, you need a relay. Just about any automotive-grade relay will do, just make sure it has at least a 30amp rating. Fog light relays will work just fine and are available inexpensively just about anywhere, including walmart. You will also need some wire; a few feet of 14/16 gauge multi-strand automotive wire will be perfect. You can also get fancy and use a relay pigtail plug harness, or just get some flat-blade type insulated crimp-on connectors as well as a crimper/stripper tool. You will also want an in-line fuse holder, 14/16g with at least a 20amp fuse. I used 5 female flat insulated connectors, one male flat connector and 2 ring terminals.
A picture says a thousand words, so here are two of them to depict the connections you need to make:
After making all the connections, zip-tie the wires out of the way of moving or hot parts. I zip-tied the relay to the bottom of the existing starter relay under the right side cover, just under it.
Now re-connect the battery and put your bodywork back together and you're done. Now when you push the starter button, the factory circuit tells the added relay to turn on, sending more current to the solenoid than the original system was capable of. The bike starts and when you let off the button, the added relay turns off, like the factory circuit did originally.
There are other ways to do the same thing with the same results. If anyone else has any helpful advice or schematics to add, please do! Maybe we can make this the definitive dreaded click answer thread!
At the very least I hope this helps someone out there...
Dont quite understand your premise here ...
Adding another relay into the stock system dosent seem to me to be a pos. current saving way to go ? Looks to me to actually add a miniscule load.
Im a newbie and could be totally wrong here but the Harley elec. system seems to be quite straight forward with 2 outboard relays in the start circuit and the one main relay on the starter motor. If only clicks are evident on start i would go to dirty connections first then starter relay and/or replace the others for a few bucks each to make sure. A dirty start switch can be cleaned out with a few shots of WD40.
Again ... im a newbie but from what i understand , the ign. switch on my newly purchased 1990 Police has a key start indent " without lamps " to start.? This meens the battery current is sent fully to the start circuit before being manually switched to the lamps etc., an excellent way to go .
The big Wings i have owned have issues here to the point were the engine wont start until you " release " the start button and full current can go the coils and actually fire the plugs .? Go figure ?
#35
06-26-2012, 09:13 PM
Dont quite understand your premise here ...
Adding another relay into the stock system dosent seem to me to be a pos. current saving way to go ? Looks to me to actually add a miniscule load.
Im a newbie and could be totally wrong here but the Harley elec. system seems to be quite straight forward with 2 outboard relays in the start circuit and the one main relay on the starter motor. If only clicks are evident on start i would go to dirty connections first then starter relay and/or replace the others for a few bucks each to make sure. A dirty start switch can be cleaned out with a few shots of WD40.
Adding another relay into the stock system dosent seem to me to be a pos. current saving way to go ? Looks to me to actually add a miniscule load.
Im a newbie and could be totally wrong here but the Harley elec. system seems to be quite straight forward with 2 outboard relays in the start circuit and the one main relay on the starter motor. If only clicks are evident on start i would go to dirty connections first then starter relay and/or replace the others for a few bucks each to make sure. A dirty start switch can be cleaned out with a few shots of WD40.
#36
06-26-2012, 10:08 PM
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relay.
Miniscule coil voltage to the added relay only.
Still dont understand how the addition of another relay could provide more voltage to the starter solenoid if the original system provides a direct path via the ign. switch to start system only and lamps etc. must be switched on by ign. switch at second detent.?
As stated , newbie, but from what i see ... to start , ign. switch is indented to start only , lamps etc. must be turned on by a second detent on the ign. switch.? Therefore ... all available battery power is shunted to starter only on start only detent on ign. switch. Lamps etc. must be aquired by turning key one more detent after start .?
Still dont understand how the addition of another relay could provide more voltage to the starter solenoid if the original system provides a direct path via the ign. switch to start system only and lamps etc. must be switched on by ign. switch at second detent.?
As stated , newbie, but from what i see ... to start , ign. switch is indented to start only , lamps etc. must be turned on by a second detent on the ign. switch.? Therefore ... all available battery power is shunted to starter only on start only detent on ign. switch. Lamps etc. must be aquired by turning key one more detent after start .?
#37
06-26-2012, 10:35 PM
Actually most Evos were subject to the Federal regs that had the headlights on in both ignition and lights positions unless the bike was modified after purchase by the removal or cutting of the jumper wire between the lights and ignition breakers.
As for how adding a relay can provide more voltage, stay with me this time;
In stock form the electricity has to flow from the battery, through the main circuit breaker, up under the tank to the ignition switch, breakers and starter button, then back to the start relay through several feet of small gauge wire and several connectors, all of which sap voltage and current, before it gets to the starter solenoid.
Adding a much shorter run of larger diameter wire and a fresh relay directly from battery to solenoid allows much more current to flow to the solenoid.
The solenoid is a big relay basically. when energized, a coil of small wire creates a magnetic field that pulls the solenoid's plunger, closing the contacts inside the solenoid housing between the large-gauge wire from the battery and the starter motor itself. Over time, this coil as well as the wiring, connectors, etc has internal crystallization that builds up, reducing it's ability to flow current and increasing internal resistance. This creates heat, which compounds the problem by causing the crystallization to grow faster. If the amount of current is too low, the coil doesn't create enough of a magnetic field to pull the plunger all the way. The more current, the stronger the magnetic field, the more powerfully the plunger gets moved.
Think of it like breathing. Would you rather try to breathe through 2 feet of garden hose, or 12 feet of drinking straw? Same premise.
As for how adding a relay can provide more voltage, stay with me this time;
In stock form the electricity has to flow from the battery, through the main circuit breaker, up under the tank to the ignition switch, breakers and starter button, then back to the start relay through several feet of small gauge wire and several connectors, all of which sap voltage and current, before it gets to the starter solenoid.
Adding a much shorter run of larger diameter wire and a fresh relay directly from battery to solenoid allows much more current to flow to the solenoid.
The solenoid is a big relay basically. when energized, a coil of small wire creates a magnetic field that pulls the solenoid's plunger, closing the contacts inside the solenoid housing between the large-gauge wire from the battery and the starter motor itself. Over time, this coil as well as the wiring, connectors, etc has internal crystallization that builds up, reducing it's ability to flow current and increasing internal resistance. This creates heat, which compounds the problem by causing the crystallization to grow faster. If the amount of current is too low, the coil doesn't create enough of a magnetic field to pull the plunger all the way. The more current, the stronger the magnetic field, the more powerfully the plunger gets moved.
Think of it like breathing. Would you rather try to breathe through 2 feet of garden hose, or 12 feet of drinking straw? Same premise.
#38
06-26-2012, 10:44 PM
#39
06-27-2012, 05:30 PM
Road Master
Miniscule coil voltage to the added relay only.
Still dont understand how the addition of another relay could provide more voltage to the starter solenoid if the original system provides a direct path via the ign. switch to start system only and lamps etc. must be switched on by ign. switch at second detent.?
As stated , newbie, but from what i see ... to start , ign. switch is indented to start only , lamps etc. must be turned on by a second detent on the ign. switch.? Therefore ... all available battery power is shunted to starter only on start only detent on ign. switch. Lamps etc. must be aquired by turning key one more detent after start .?
Still dont understand how the addition of another relay could provide more voltage to the starter solenoid if the original system provides a direct path via the ign. switch to start system only and lamps etc. must be switched on by ign. switch at second detent.?
As stated , newbie, but from what i see ... to start , ign. switch is indented to start only , lamps etc. must be turned on by a second detent on the ign. switch.? Therefore ... all available battery power is shunted to starter only on start only detent on ign. switch. Lamps etc. must be aquired by turning key one more detent after start .?
I have not had to use my solenoid button since I added the relay. Again, I meticulously pulled, replaced, cleaned, greased, etc, etc, all my wiring harness connections, cleaned and replaced every ground wire and strap that needed it and still the damn click. Added 2nd relay, click gone.
#40
06-27-2012, 06:48 PM
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trick wiring.
I get you now ., Well done !
As i see it , you have "paralleld" to the original wiring with the heavier wire and relay to provide max. voltage to the starter solenoid without changing the original wiring at all .
Very nice !
Sorry about all the questions etc. spent to many years as a Honda web tech. seeing lots of crazy ideas etc.
As i see it , you have "paralleld" to the original wiring with the heavier wire and relay to provide max. voltage to the starter solenoid without changing the original wiring at all .
Very nice !
Sorry about all the questions etc. spent to many years as a Honda web tech. seeing lots of crazy ideas etc.