My experience installing the SE 25284-11 cam kit
#1
01-31-2014 | 03:10 PM
Thread Starter
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Road Master
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,062
Likes: 271
From: Outer Banks, NC
My experience installing the SE 25284-11 cam kit
To all those thinking about replacing your 1999-2006 Twin Cam (TC) spring cam chain tensioners with the SE hydraulic tensioner kit #25284-11. I just completed this install and I thought I'd pass on what I discovered. To do this mod you REALLY need the HD service manual for your bike.
First, I decided to keep my stock push rods and so had to remove the seat, tank, rocker covers and rocker supports. When I did my research I noticed HD required 3 other kit purchases in addition to the 25284-11. Do we need them? Here's what I found.
#1: Spacer kit 25285-08. Yes for most of us. If you have an 1999-2000 TC Dyna, Touring or Softail you have to re-use your outside chain and sprockets (and spacer) and so do not need the spacer kit. With my 2006 Ultra I needed this kit and ended up using the second largest spacer.
#2: Drive gear retention kit 25533-99A. For me, no. All this kit is, are the two bolts that hold the 2 sprockets on the crank and outside, rear cam. Also two washers for same. Why we can't re-use the original bolts and washers is never explained. Well, for some reason when I received the 25284-11 from Keller HD online (best price) it came with these two bolts. I compared them to my originals and they were both exactly the same. I used the new ones. If someone knows more about this let us all know.
3#: Cam Service Kit 17045-99D. Yes, I needed this ESPECIALLY since I was digging into the rocker cover and all. This kit includes a lot of stuff, including gaskets (rocker covers and cam chest cover), exhaust seals, MANY o-rings, roller bearing for rear cam, ball bearing for front cam, and breather filters. It also comes with 2 HD caged inner cam bearings but I did not use them. Like most that do this mod, I bought upgraded inner bearings without the cage. I bought 2 Koyo B148's on Ebay. (Koyo used to be Torrington, before that Timkin)
Ok, now we have all the components. Here are the things I learned. This job is much easier if you remove the exhaust, all 4 floorboards and lower fairings. Remove seat, no problem.
The trick with removing the gas tank is remove as much of the gas ahead of time as possible! When you remove the crossover hose from the bottom, left side, you will have gas coming out from both places so you have to prepare to catch it. (This is where you read the HD service manual.)
Removing the rocker covers is ok, the rear one is tight. The real **tch is the rear rocker support. First, for each cyl you place the piston at TDC on the compression stroke (Both pushrods are at their lowest). I searched and found other posts on this (and other) message boards. You basically get down to 2 left mount bolts and one breather bolt that seem impossible to remove on the rear rockers. Believe it or not one guy here suggested to use a 2x4 and "gently" push down on the rear cyl top. Just a 1/4 inch is all it takes and you can slip that rear rocker out! You are going to need that 2x4 when you put that piece back in. Push rods out, mark them so you put them back in the same place!
Down at the cam chest, the cover comes off easy. HD recommends a little tool to bind up the 2 cam sprockets so you can loosen the bolts. Instead, the trick here is to place the tranny in gear (5th is best) and you can loosen both bolts. Before you pull off the cam plate you have to do something to keep the lifters from falling into the cam area. The HD manual suggests something that just did not work for me. They say to get a office paper binder and remove the springs and use these to clip into the top of the lifters. I could not figure out what they were supposed to clip into. So of course when I removed the plate the lifters fell anyway! I ended up taking the lifter covers off and removed the lifters. (The gaskets for these come with 17045 too). Mark the lifters so they go back in the same place!
Ok, now we come to removing the inner bearings and replacing. If you have an AutoZone near you they have a cool tool rental deal where you "buy" the "hidden bearing" removal tool and if you return it in pristine shape they give you your money back. It worked for me, good deal. You place this tool carefully into the old bearings, tighten the tool and then use the slide hammer to remove them. Now, another special HD tool is supposed to be used, the inner bearing installer. Ok, at this point shop mechanics will screech but I did it a "different" way! I (carefully) used the rear cam itself as a tool. I placed the new bearing on the end and sighted it straight. I used a hard rubber hammer to protect the outer end and slowly tapped both bearings in. Done! Now I've been working on my own stuff a long time and know how to go slowly and carefully doing something like this. Do so at your own risk.
Ok, now the outer bearings. I have a friend with a hyd press and he helped me press both the roller and ball bearings into their respective holes in the cam plate. Now the inner chain goes on; timing marks lined up and we pressed the front cam into the front bearing. The rear cam just slides into it's bearing at the same time. Inner new cam tensioner on. Double check the timing! As you assemble don't forget all the o-rings, especially the one on the suction of the oil pump. After the cam plate is back on, you put the sprockets and chain on (TIMING!) and tighten the bolts with the tranny in gear. Outer new cam tensioner on. Cam chest cover.
Lifters in, lifter covers, push rod tubes (o-rings!), push rods in, 2 o-rings under each rocker support, supports, breathers, bolts (use the 2x4!), gaskets, covers. Gas tank on.
At this point I wanted to make sure it would run before I put anything else on (cam timing? or whatever). I put just one gallon of gas in and crossed my fingers. Hearing muffs on because of no exhaust! I cranked and it started! Ran it just 15 seconds, I could tell the timing was right, ie, revs good and it idled correctly. I hope this post will help anybody contemplating doing the infamous cam chain tensioner replacement!
First, I decided to keep my stock push rods and so had to remove the seat, tank, rocker covers and rocker supports. When I did my research I noticed HD required 3 other kit purchases in addition to the 25284-11. Do we need them? Here's what I found.
#1: Spacer kit 25285-08. Yes for most of us. If you have an 1999-2000 TC Dyna, Touring or Softail you have to re-use your outside chain and sprockets (and spacer) and so do not need the spacer kit. With my 2006 Ultra I needed this kit and ended up using the second largest spacer.
#2: Drive gear retention kit 25533-99A. For me, no. All this kit is, are the two bolts that hold the 2 sprockets on the crank and outside, rear cam. Also two washers for same. Why we can't re-use the original bolts and washers is never explained. Well, for some reason when I received the 25284-11 from Keller HD online (best price) it came with these two bolts. I compared them to my originals and they were both exactly the same. I used the new ones. If someone knows more about this let us all know.
3#: Cam Service Kit 17045-99D. Yes, I needed this ESPECIALLY since I was digging into the rocker cover and all. This kit includes a lot of stuff, including gaskets (rocker covers and cam chest cover), exhaust seals, MANY o-rings, roller bearing for rear cam, ball bearing for front cam, and breather filters. It also comes with 2 HD caged inner cam bearings but I did not use them. Like most that do this mod, I bought upgraded inner bearings without the cage. I bought 2 Koyo B148's on Ebay. (Koyo used to be Torrington, before that Timkin)
Ok, now we have all the components. Here are the things I learned. This job is much easier if you remove the exhaust, all 4 floorboards and lower fairings. Remove seat, no problem.
The trick with removing the gas tank is remove as much of the gas ahead of time as possible! When you remove the crossover hose from the bottom, left side, you will have gas coming out from both places so you have to prepare to catch it. (This is where you read the HD service manual.)
Removing the rocker covers is ok, the rear one is tight. The real **tch is the rear rocker support. First, for each cyl you place the piston at TDC on the compression stroke (Both pushrods are at their lowest). I searched and found other posts on this (and other) message boards. You basically get down to 2 left mount bolts and one breather bolt that seem impossible to remove on the rear rockers. Believe it or not one guy here suggested to use a 2x4 and "gently" push down on the rear cyl top. Just a 1/4 inch is all it takes and you can slip that rear rocker out! You are going to need that 2x4 when you put that piece back in. Push rods out, mark them so you put them back in the same place!
Down at the cam chest, the cover comes off easy. HD recommends a little tool to bind up the 2 cam sprockets so you can loosen the bolts. Instead, the trick here is to place the tranny in gear (5th is best) and you can loosen both bolts. Before you pull off the cam plate you have to do something to keep the lifters from falling into the cam area. The HD manual suggests something that just did not work for me. They say to get a office paper binder and remove the springs and use these to clip into the top of the lifters. I could not figure out what they were supposed to clip into. So of course when I removed the plate the lifters fell anyway! I ended up taking the lifter covers off and removed the lifters. (The gaskets for these come with 17045 too). Mark the lifters so they go back in the same place!
Ok, now we come to removing the inner bearings and replacing. If you have an AutoZone near you they have a cool tool rental deal where you "buy" the "hidden bearing" removal tool and if you return it in pristine shape they give you your money back. It worked for me, good deal. You place this tool carefully into the old bearings, tighten the tool and then use the slide hammer to remove them. Now, another special HD tool is supposed to be used, the inner bearing installer. Ok, at this point shop mechanics will screech but I did it a "different" way! I (carefully) used the rear cam itself as a tool. I placed the new bearing on the end and sighted it straight. I used a hard rubber hammer to protect the outer end and slowly tapped both bearings in. Done! Now I've been working on my own stuff a long time and know how to go slowly and carefully doing something like this. Do so at your own risk.
Ok, now the outer bearings. I have a friend with a hyd press and he helped me press both the roller and ball bearings into their respective holes in the cam plate. Now the inner chain goes on; timing marks lined up and we pressed the front cam into the front bearing. The rear cam just slides into it's bearing at the same time. Inner new cam tensioner on. Double check the timing! As you assemble don't forget all the o-rings, especially the one on the suction of the oil pump. After the cam plate is back on, you put the sprockets and chain on (TIMING!) and tighten the bolts with the tranny in gear. Outer new cam tensioner on. Cam chest cover.
Lifters in, lifter covers, push rod tubes (o-rings!), push rods in, 2 o-rings under each rocker support, supports, breathers, bolts (use the 2x4!), gaskets, covers. Gas tank on.
At this point I wanted to make sure it would run before I put anything else on (cam timing? or whatever). I put just one gallon of gas in and crossed my fingers. Hearing muffs on because of no exhaust! I cranked and it started! Ran it just 15 seconds, I could tell the timing was right, ie, revs good and it idled correctly. I hope this post will help anybody contemplating doing the infamous cam chain tensioner replacement!
Last edited by glasspilot; 01-31-2014 at 03:14 PM.
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#3
02-01-2014 | 09:46 AM
Tourer
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 384
Likes: 210
From: Mid-Mo.
Just did the same thing to my 2000 FLHT, stock 88" (S&S 509 cams). One word of caution: Be sure and check the oil pressure relief plunger. Mine was sticking and not seating properly and would lose oil pressure at idle after it warmed up and rattle like crazy. Fixed with an Axtell Bypass kit. Bike now runs great, 35 psi at 2500-3000 rpm and 20 psi at idle. Super quiet.
#4
03-15-2014 | 09:12 AM
Thread Starter
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Road Master
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,062
Likes: 271
From: Outer Banks, NC
#5
03-15-2014 | 12:26 PM
HDF Community Team
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 12,282
Likes: 2,249
From: san antonio
Don't buy the cam service kit; most of the included parts are not needed so just buy the parts you need. Spend the savings on the '10 up stamped breathers; shorter bolts, drop right in, no 2x4 required and no issues for future work that might require rocker support remova.
Search for the "oven/freezer" method for installing bearings on cams and cam assembly into cam plate. The suggestion to buff up the pressure relief valve for smooth operation or replace with the Axtell piece is a good one.
I also use the "caveman" approach to installing inner cam bearings; just be sure the bearings are installed numbers facing out and the seat in the bearing boss about .025" from the case.. That is the benefit of using the tool; it will sea the bearings at the proper depth I the bearing boss.
I also recommend getting eh parts manual for your bike If a DIY guy. Aside from helping determine what parts are required for an upgrade or repair, the isometric drawings clearly show how the parts fit together. Very helpful and worth the $$ IMHO.
Kudos to glasspilot on the successful completion of his project.
Search for the "oven/freezer" method for installing bearings on cams and cam assembly into cam plate. The suggestion to buff up the pressure relief valve for smooth operation or replace with the Axtell piece is a good one.
I also use the "caveman" approach to installing inner cam bearings; just be sure the bearings are installed numbers facing out and the seat in the bearing boss about .025" from the case.. That is the benefit of using the tool; it will sea the bearings at the proper depth I the bearing boss.
I also recommend getting eh parts manual for your bike If a DIY guy. Aside from helping determine what parts are required for an upgrade or repair, the isometric drawings clearly show how the parts fit together. Very helpful and worth the $$ IMHO.
Kudos to glasspilot on the successful completion of his project.
#7
03-16-2014 | 06:40 PM
Road Warrior
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,368
Likes: 27
From: Australia
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#8
03-16-2014 | 08:00 PM
Advanced
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
From: NC
I have a 2013 trike, and have done all of the stage 1 mods, and that helped the bike a lot. But my 6th gear is still not where I want it to be. I don't have the "oomph" to pass in a hurry, and have to shift down if I want to go fast. I just need more hp, and torque. So I want to put in a cam, but don't have a clue which one to suit my needs. I do know I don't need something with the greatest torque at 5000 rpm's, I don't run there. I'm usually running between 2 & 3300. Would appreciate any suggestions please, thanks.....
#9
03-17-2014 | 07:33 AM
Thread Starter
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Road Master
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,062
Likes: 271
From: Outer Banks, NC
#10
03-17-2014 | 12:57 PM
HDF Community Team
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 12,282
Likes: 2,249
From: san antonio
I have a 2013 trike, and have done all of the stage 1 mods, and that helped the bike a lot. But my 6th gear is still not where I want it to be. I don't have the "oomph" to pass in a hurry, and have to shift down if I want to go fast. I just need more hp, and torque. So I want to put in a cam, but don't have a clue which one to suit my needs. I do know I don't need something with the greatest torque at 5000 rpm's, I don't run there. I'm usually running between 2 & 3300. Would appreciate any suggestions please, thanks.....