Engine Mechanical TopicsDiscussion for motor builds, cams, head work, stripped bolts and other engine related issues. The good and the bad. If it goes round and around or up and down, post it here.
Just to add... listened to these guys. I did. They will not steer you wrong. You'll get a little bump on any of these cams, nothing to match a 103, but a little bump. I could have gone with any, but since I had some S&S stuff I went with them. S&S 509, lifters, Quickie push rods. The Adjustable push rods have to come apart and are hard to install. I'm sure I would be just as happy with the Andrews 21.
No; however, removing the rear breather can be challenging as overhead space is limited but it will come out. No issue installing the new stamped breathers as they are thinner and come with shorter bolts. The HD PN is 17025-03A and the newer breathers are supposed to be more efficient. Inexpensive upgrade so why not include with the rest of the work? If you don't have the service manual for your bike you should get one; the HD manual is the only one worth having.
Have never run the 509 but have attached some dyno numbers that will illustrate the difference in performance over stock which is 60HP/70TQ. All are options except the Andrews 48; too much lift. Remember that these are peak numbers and don't represent partial throttle response. The 37 and 510 cams are going to be softer on the bottom than the others because of the later intake close and the general cam profile; they just need a bit more than stock compression to wake up.
CYCO is the brand; they are a US Seall product. I like the SE204 for your application but you should be happy with either of the three. Adjustable or stock push rods is your call. If you like adjustable, consider the SE tapered quick install (PN 18404-08). The "kit" includes pushrods, tubes, clips and o-rings.
You are the man! Thank you for all the details and help answering all my questions! Gonna do my research to get a parts list together, but I definitely have a better idea of the direction now and what I need. Also, really appreciate those power numbers for the different cams, definitely helps!
Don't be surprised to see another post from me in this thread ahaha Great advice!
Just to add... listened to these guys. I did. They will not steer you wrong. You'll get a little bump on any of these cams, nothing to match a 103, but a little bump. I could have gone with any, but since I had some S&S stuff I went with them. S&S 509, lifters, Quickie push rods. The Adjustable push rods have to come apart and are hard to install. I'm sure I would be just as happy with the Andrews 21.
Yes, there is a lot of good info in here! I am glad I posted, because initially I wasn't going to, but I couldn't find what info I was looking for in searching (appreciate the link, will check it out!)
Is there any chance a kit from S&S that came with all the parts you replaced? Seems that my new plan will be the CYCO shoes, the breather kit from harley, cams, lifters, bearings, and pushrods.
Never saw kit for mine. I used the standard S&S lifter/tappets. All that, gaskets and special tools then you'll be good. Tear it down first to see if you'll need anything else. Good winter project. Keep us in the loop. Good to see folks getting their hands dirty.
edit: If you do the breathers, you can save on the push rods and use the ones you have as there is no need to cut them. I replaced mine for no real good reason except if I needed to replace the shoes later.
Looking to jump into the cam chest on my 2004 Train to change out the cam chain tensionsers (I have put about 20,000KMs on the bike since owning) and I feel like while I am there I should upgrade. I would like to preface that I have built multiple engines myself for my drag car, so getting my hands dirty is no problem for me. I have an 05' road glide with cams and heads that I bought that way, and my biggest gripe is just the fact that it runs HOT, something I dont want for my Train especially since I do a lot of city riding with it (and yes it is tuned correctly).
Currently, it has Vance and Hines Big Radius 2 into 1 and a fuel moto piggyback tuner. I would like to skip the stock chain tensioner replacement all together and go with hydraulic, or even gears to eliminate that worry completely. I have looked at cams for upgrade, and see various opinions on Andrews, S&S, and Screamin Eagle stuff. I want cams that I can use stock valve springs with (I dont want to go into the heads, and if I have to I will just skip this for now and address tensioners only) and will give me some better low end grunt even using stock heads.
If there is a complete kit out there that would give me everything I need, I am all ears! I saw this one just browsing, and I have read how the 510's are a good entry level cam with otherwise stock engines, but what parts am I miss for my upgrade besides pushrods? It says I need valve springs and to check PTV but as I mentioned, I want to avoid that. https://www.denniskirk.com/s-and-s-c...prd/148883.sku
Any input and experience is welcome!
Andrews 21 cams as a plug/play for 88" application, and you can still "grow" the engine to 98" if so desired.
They work VERY well.
Scott
Andrews 21 cams as a plug/play for 88" application, and you can still "grow" the engine to 98" if so desired.
They work VERY well.
Scott
I will have to look into that cam as well then, never saw it listed as one for this application in the searches. It will work with stock valvesprings? How does it compare with an S&S 509?
Also, I need to figure out what tools I am going to need. I have the service manual for my bike, but wondering what specialty tools I can get away without and which ones I will actually need.
I will have to look into that cam as well then, never saw it listed as one for this application in the searches. It will work with stock valvesprings?
Also, I need to figure out what tools I am going to need. I have the service manual for my bike, but wondering what specialty tools I can get away without and which ones I will actually need.
Yes, the 21 cams will work with stock '04 valve springs as will any cam with lift not greater than .510".
You will need the CYCO tool to install the CYCO shoes; buy it when you buy the shoes. There is a work around for the R/R of the inner cam bearings but if this is the OP has not done this before, buying the tool would be a good idea. Recently saw the linked tool in another post for a good price. The work around is renting a blind hole puller from AutoZone to pull the old bearings and using one of the old cams as a driver to install the new bearings. Freeze the bearing over night; liberally apply cam lube to the bearing shell and bearing boss, make sure the bearing is started straight and drive (lightly tap) the new bearing into the bore. Using a finger, check that the rollers roll freely in the case after installed; or use the tool. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Harley-Twin...gAAOxyrP9RZEPJ
The oven/freezer method can be used to install the outer cam bearings and the cams; the OP just needs to search the net for the "oven/freezer" method. A link to a related post is attached that has some good information. Or, take the cams and cam plate to a dealer and have them install bearings and cams. https://www.hdforums.com/forum/exhau...e-cooking.html
No need for the locking tool; put the trans in 1st gear and hold the brake to loosen and tighten the pinion and rear cam bolt; only 35 and 25 ft. lbs.
Pay attention to the oil pump alignment procedure as outlined in the service manual. The gerotors need to align to each other and to the pinion shaft. Pay attention to the large o-ring that seals the oil pump spigot to the scavenge port in the motor case; the motor will sump if that o-ring is pinched or doesn't seat properly in the port bore.
Of course, torque wrenches are required; ft.lb. and in.lb. Keep the torque to the low end of the spec on the cam plate bolts at 10:00 and 2:00, where the dowel pins are; very easy to strip.
Read the procedure in the service manual several times and refer to it often at each step of the process, follow the sequence, don't get in a hurry and watch out for Murphy; he is always lurking.
Yes, the 21 cams will work with stock '04 valve springs as will any cam with lift not greater than .510".
You will need the CYCO tool to install the CYCO shoes; buy it when you buy the shoes. There is a work around for the R/R of the inner cam bearings but if this is the OP has not done this before, buying the tool would be a good idea. Recently saw the linked tool in another post for a good price. The work around is renting a blind hole puller from AutoZone to pull the old bearings and using one of the old cams as a driver to install the new bearings. Freeze the bearing over night; liberally apply cam lube to the bearing shell and bearing boss, make sure the bearing is started straight and drive (lightly tap) the new bearing into the bore. Using a finger, check that the rollers roll freely in the case after installed; or use the tool. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Harley-Twin...gAAOxyrP9RZEPJ
The oven/freezer method can be used to install the outer cam bearings and the cams; the OP just needs to search the net for the "oven/freezer" method. A link to a related post is attached that has some good information. Or, take the cams and cam plate to a dealer and have them install bearings and cams. https://www.hdforums.com/forum/exhau...e-cooking.html
No need for the locking tool; put the trans in 1st gear and hold the brake to loosen and tighten the pinion and rear cam bolt; only 35 and 25 ft. lbs.
Pay attention to the oil pump alignment procedure as outlined in the service manual. The gerotors need to align to each other and to the pinion shaft. Pay attention to the large o-ring that seals the oil pump spigot to the scavenge port in the motor case; the motor will sump if that o-ring is pinched or doesn't seat properly in the port bore.
Of course, torque wrenches are required; ft.lb. and in.lb. Keep the torque to the low end of the spec on the cam plate bolts at 10:00 and 2:00, where the dowel pins are; very easy to strip.
Read the procedure in the service manual several times and refer to it often at each step of the process, follow the sequence, don't get in a hurry and watch out for Murphy; he is always lurking.
Thank you! I do have the service manual, so I will be sure to go over it multiple times beforehand and follow it down to the last step.
It's been almost a month, but wanted to see where you ended up. I did this exact upgrade a little over a year ago and went with 509G cams, quickee pushrods, lifters, new hydraulic camplate, high volume oil pump and Twin Tec adjustable ignition. I had worked on numerous vehicles in the past (diesel turbo swaps, clutch swaps on cars/sand rails, R/R transmission, rebuilt a transfer case, etc), but never anything this involved. Like they said, just follow the procedures and you'll do fine.
A little late, but just got this done! Ahaha
I considered going big bore for a while, but ended up staying at 88ci and installing Andrew's 26 cams, a power commander 5, and thunderheader 2 into 1.
Going to be getting the bike tuned in the spring to maximize the power, and also because I couldn't find a map for my setup (closest was 88 with se 203 cam and a thunderheader).
Does anybody know if I'll require an upgraded clutch spring for the bike now? And if so, which one? I know there are various options, but I also dont want a super heavy clutch release at the lever as this bike sees mostly city riding.
12-11-2019, 12:02 PM
