Which Tuner-Opinions wanted
#21
04-27-2012, 09:21 AM
Outstanding HDF Member
I'll try and keep this short as I have posted it on here before. You need to know what options are out there as to know what's "best" for you.
There are three kind of solutions out there when it comes to tuning your bike. Note I said solutions, not tuners as some of the solutions aren't adjustable or "tunable".
Solution 1 - Dumb Spoofers. Dumb Spoofers trick the Engine Control Module (ECM) on your bike into believing one thing so it will do another. Two examples of these kind of solutions are IEDs and the V&H FuelPak. IEDs are nothing more than a resister with a certain resistance that go between your O2 sensors and your main wiring harness. They change the voltage of the signal that the O2s are sending back to the ECM to get the ECM to believe the bike is running leaner than it really is and thus causes the ECM to add more fuel to compensate. The FuelPak is similar but a bit more complex. What makes these solutions "dumb" is that they cannot be adjusted. You plug them in and go hoping their "spoofs" are close enough. These devices must stay on the bike in order for them to work. If removed or they fail, the stock settings in the ECM are no longer being fooled and your bike goes back to running on the stock tune in stock fashion.
Solution 2 - Smart Spoofers. The PowerCommander (III and V) fall into this catagory. Basically they are like the FuelPak and will spoof inputs coming into the ECM and modify the signals that are going out of the ECM to the different engine controls like fuel injectors and timing. The difference is that with these, you can make adjustments to them and truely "tune" the bike. However, they are still just fooling the stock ECM programming to get it to do what you want. Like the "Dumb Spoofers", these devices must stay on the bike in order for them to work. If removed or they fail, the stock settings in the ECM are no longer being fooled and your bike goes back to running on the stock tune in stock fashion.
Solution 3 - ECM Flasher. The SERTPRO and PowerVision both fall into this catagory. These solutions allow you to read the tune programmed into the ECM, modify it, then reprogram, or "flash" the new tune back into the stock ECM. Unlike the other solutions, these devices do not have to stay on the bike because your stock ECM has been reprogrammed and is doing all the work...just with different parameters to calculate fuel and spark needs. I like the fact that with the SERTPRO it is not "married" to one specific bike. I did not know this. I personally have the PowerVision. What I like about the PowerVision is that it is not just a reprogrammer, but a data logger too. You can ride your bike around and "scan" the computer as your ride to find out exactly how your current tune is performing. You can then take this information and use it to make adjustments to your current tune to get it spot on.
Now, I'm not a great tuner so one feature about the PowerVision I like, called Autotune (basic and pro are available...basic comes with the system and pro requires a purchase of an additional piece of hardware), is that you can do a bunch of scans, upload those scans to another program that you can download (for free) from FuelMoto, and allow that program to adjust the tune for you and write a new tune to reflash to the ECM. There is another solution out there (drawing a blank) that is similar to the PowerVision and has an Autotune feature like this as well.
Rating the Solutions.
As you move from Solution 1 to Solution 3, the effectivness of each solution gets better while the price of each solution gets greater. Thus, it comes down to a decision, by you, of how much do you value that "perfect tune"? The more value you put in getting that perfect tune, the higher on the Solution scale you go and the more money you'll spend. Thowing a set of IEDs on your bike may work okay but they will be a long way off from perfect...but they're cheap! Getting a SERTPRO and putting it on a dyno with someone who really knows how to tune bikes is going to get you a near perfect tune (I always believe doing scans while riding real world and using that info rather than data off a dyno will result in a better tune) but it's going to cost you the most money.
So, what's best? Well, it depends on what you want to spend and what result you're looking for.
There are three kind of solutions out there when it comes to tuning your bike. Note I said solutions, not tuners as some of the solutions aren't adjustable or "tunable".
Solution 1 - Dumb Spoofers. Dumb Spoofers trick the Engine Control Module (ECM) on your bike into believing one thing so it will do another. Two examples of these kind of solutions are IEDs and the V&H FuelPak. IEDs are nothing more than a resister with a certain resistance that go between your O2 sensors and your main wiring harness. They change the voltage of the signal that the O2s are sending back to the ECM to get the ECM to believe the bike is running leaner than it really is and thus causes the ECM to add more fuel to compensate. The FuelPak is similar but a bit more complex. What makes these solutions "dumb" is that they cannot be adjusted. You plug them in and go hoping their "spoofs" are close enough. These devices must stay on the bike in order for them to work. If removed or they fail, the stock settings in the ECM are no longer being fooled and your bike goes back to running on the stock tune in stock fashion.
Solution 2 - Smart Spoofers. The PowerCommander (III and V) fall into this catagory. Basically they are like the FuelPak and will spoof inputs coming into the ECM and modify the signals that are going out of the ECM to the different engine controls like fuel injectors and timing. The difference is that with these, you can make adjustments to them and truely "tune" the bike. However, they are still just fooling the stock ECM programming to get it to do what you want. Like the "Dumb Spoofers", these devices must stay on the bike in order for them to work. If removed or they fail, the stock settings in the ECM are no longer being fooled and your bike goes back to running on the stock tune in stock fashion.
Solution 3 - ECM Flasher. The SERTPRO and PowerVision both fall into this catagory. These solutions allow you to read the tune programmed into the ECM, modify it, then reprogram, or "flash" the new tune back into the stock ECM. Unlike the other solutions, these devices do not have to stay on the bike because your stock ECM has been reprogrammed and is doing all the work...just with different parameters to calculate fuel and spark needs. I like the fact that with the SERTPRO it is not "married" to one specific bike. I did not know this. I personally have the PowerVision. What I like about the PowerVision is that it is not just a reprogrammer, but a data logger too. You can ride your bike around and "scan" the computer as your ride to find out exactly how your current tune is performing. You can then take this information and use it to make adjustments to your current tune to get it spot on.
Now, I'm not a great tuner so one feature about the PowerVision I like, called Autotune (basic and pro are available...basic comes with the system and pro requires a purchase of an additional piece of hardware), is that you can do a bunch of scans, upload those scans to another program that you can download (for free) from FuelMoto, and allow that program to adjust the tune for you and write a new tune to reflash to the ECM. There is another solution out there (drawing a blank) that is similar to the PowerVision and has an Autotune feature like this as well.
Rating the Solutions.
As you move from Solution 1 to Solution 3, the effectivness of each solution gets better while the price of each solution gets greater. Thus, it comes down to a decision, by you, of how much do you value that "perfect tune"? The more value you put in getting that perfect tune, the higher on the Solution scale you go and the more money you'll spend. Thowing a set of IEDs on your bike may work okay but they will be a long way off from perfect...but they're cheap! Getting a SERTPRO and putting it on a dyno with someone who really knows how to tune bikes is going to get you a near perfect tune (I always believe doing scans while riding real world and using that info rather than data off a dyno will result in a better tune) but it's going to cost you the most money.
So, what's best? Well, it depends on what you want to spend and what result you're looking for.
I had the X14iEDs on my Sporty...$100 & it ran good, but not perfect. Helped a lot with decel popping & my plugs looked good.
When I bought my new FXDC I bought the SERTPRO tuner and had it dyno tuned @ 1,000 miles. Tune is spot on and what I would consider perfect, but was $459.95 for the tuner & $350 for the dyno, so basically I have $810 in my tune.
Depends on how far you want to go with $ & how good you want your bike to run...you have to weigh all the options.
If you're wanting some time to think about it, the Nightrider products(XiED) will work good and keep your bike out of a lean condition in closed loop operation until you decide how far you want to go with your tune, or you may decide you are happy with the XiEDs.
#22
04-27-2012, 09:40 AM
I agree that was a well written write up better than anything else I have read. Sharkman73 your point is dead on, very much like tuning a hot rod, with basic tools and diagnostic equipment you can tune an engine fairly close, however the difference between just running well and getting all that is available out of any engine is a good tune and that takes the correct componants, a dyno, and someone who knows what they are doing. As they say, you want to play? You gotta pay, it's that simple.
For example, a Duramax diesel with an Edge Tuner (or any of the pre-programmed tuners for that much) will run great and impress the hell out of you over the stock performance, however have someone with a laptop who knows how to work and write the tune tables and adjust it throughout the operating range and that 7000 pound truck will flat out embarass many off the showroon performance CARS which wiegh in at half the amount.
The same goes for peformance cars with tuners running preprogrammed tunes, they will run great and really put a smile on your face however, the more versital tuner in the hands of a master on a dyno and look out! Thanks for the imput guys.
Bob
For example, a Duramax diesel with an Edge Tuner (or any of the pre-programmed tuners for that much) will run great and impress the hell out of you over the stock performance, however have someone with a laptop who knows how to work and write the tune tables and adjust it throughout the operating range and that 7000 pound truck will flat out embarass many off the showroon performance CARS which wiegh in at half the amount.
The same goes for peformance cars with tuners running preprogrammed tunes, they will run great and really put a smile on your face however, the more versital tuner in the hands of a master on a dyno and look out! Thanks for the imput guys.
Bob
#23
04-27-2012, 10:06 AM
#24
04-27-2012, 10:21 AM
Forums are a great tool but sometimes good write ups get lost in all the wieght and unless you've been on a specific forum for awhile you will miss a well written topic. Nothing wrong with refering someone who asks to a thread you know about to answer a question...beats flaming to hell.
Bob
#25
04-27-2012, 10:46 AM
you are asking a question based on opinions. every one of the tuners work and some will say stay away from all tuners. "what tires yall running" "what seat yall got" "what exhaust yall running" all dumb threads based on opinions. what is good for some is not good for all. so what you need to do is start a poll and then pick the one voted best if you are making your decision based on opinions. yes the search function does suck a little but this has been discussed every f*cking week ive been on here. peace
#28
04-27-2012, 11:28 AM
I'm not bored Al, just annoyed by the questions "men" are asking on this forum on a daily basis. This forum is great, ive been helped a couple of times with spot on information. i'll keep my comments to myself from now on since people are such p*ssies on here. I hope tomorrow i see another exhaust,seat,tuner,tire thread with the same old opinions.
#29
04-27-2012, 11:38 AM
I'm not bored Al, just annoyed by the questions "men" are asking on this forum on a daily basis. This forum is great, ive been helped a couple of times with spot on information. i'll keep my comments to myself from now on since people are such p*ssies on here. I hope tomorrow i see another exhaust,seat,tuner,tire thread with the same old opinions.
#30
04-27-2012, 01:06 PM
Outstanding HDF Member