Just keep in mind,some bikes run fine with the eight degree injectors and some don't. Injector change may not be the problem. Mine came with the twenty five degree injectors and still didn't do right. Surge and bucking at just off idle and just about any low rpm. Dealer says normal,within tolerance. Problem solved with PCIII,smooth as silk but worse gas mileage. Just had dyno tune and all setttings were rich from fuel moto map. Haven't checked gas mileage yet but even more power and smoothness and figure gas mileage will be better too. Just filled up tonite,will know in a coupla days.

Good Luck

Tom

 

I have been reading about this injector situation for months. What baffles the crap out of me is the statement " some are OK and some are not ". For crying out loud there has to be some science with this. Is it luck or magic if you happen to have a bike that works?
F#*% no, either these 8 degree injectors work or they don't, this is not a multiple choice question, it is a black or white question.
I have an 06 FXDI 35 with 8 degree injectors and my dealer don't want to change them, I even offered to split the cost. The more I read, there attitude is starting to **** me off. I find this some do, some don't, approach to be ignorant. For God's sake this is machinery we are talking about, not humans, either these things are right or they are wrong.
If I am wrong, that is like saying 2 + 2= 3 So I aint buying "some do and some don't." ( Thanks I feel better now )

 

No, it is not black and white. Every bike is different, every bike is a law unto itself. Just like if you took 100 bikes (or cars or anything else) off the assembly line and dynoed them all 10 times each on the same dyno, no two would average the same. Just because they're "machines" doesn't mean they are all completely and utterly identical right down to the finest detail. One tiny difference with the injectors themselves can mean the difference between heaven and hell.

I have the 8° injectors and mine runs just fine, even at 95". Others have huge problems right from the start. Atmospheric conditions probably play as much a role as anything else. If it was causing problems with almost every single bike put out, there would've been a lot more pissed off people and they would've had to do a recall. As it stands, some have problems, some don't. Like it or not, that's the reality of it.


The problem only affects `06's. Up to `05, the injectors worked fine and had a higher flow rate.

 

"every bike is a law unto itself" As much as we like to customize our bikes, as they come from the factory the components are exactly the same. Yes, you can have a faulty component, but you replace it with a good component made to the exact same specifications. ( not one of a different size or configuration ) I know I am getting into a bucket of worms here but Harley Davidson isn't the only people on earth who uses fuel injection.
Ford, Chevy, Dodge, BMW, Honda, Yamaha, etc, etc don't ship vehicles of the same model with different injectors. Yes even the components in your beloved Harley's are mass produced. ( probably in China or Mexico ) Some of you may think your bike has it's own soul and personality and is uniquely individual, but it just aint so. ( also, there really aint no santa claus)
Companies routinely make 10,000 engines with the exact same injectors and they all work. If one don't because of the injectors, they replace the injectors with the same part. They don't put a different size or design in each engine to make it work.
I am not a history buff but I seem to remember it was Henry Ford that perfected mass production. Since that time, quality standards and CNC machinery has perfected the exactness of components.
The only exception to this is of coarse things shipped to California. But someday California will fall into the pacific and things will return to normal. I maintain that it is indeed black or white.

 

I hate to say it, but I have to agree with jackson here. These bikes do come off an asembly line. And while atmospheric conditions do play some part in how a machine might behave, I don't think it's enough to be the root cause of this issue. Another thing that no one has mentioned yet is the most simple fact...the individual rider also plays a major role here. Let me explain. I'm the type of person who doesn't really let inaccuracies bother me. If there's a little bit of surging, or poping, I don't really mind. At the same time, someone else may totally not accept that. So the truth is, while someone who claims the bike is running "perfectly", a different person riding the same bike would say there's a problem. Don't think for a second the Motor Company doesn't realize this. In the end, the bikes are all the same....and there's no doubt that there may be slight differences in how they run, they should all behave identically. One could argue..."well...what about lemon law when speaking about cars". Of course this is an issue..but that's one car out of 100...or 1000..whatever. If this was a lemon law issue, there wouldn't be this many people complaining about the issue.

In my opinion, every single bike that is affected by this TSB should be fixed by a dealer...no questions asked. If HD doesn't want to do a full recall, that's one thing...but it obviously is a condition and should be addressed for every single customer who brings it up. I, personally, don't mind the way my bike runs...I would be one of the folks who would claim my bike is running "perfectly". And yet, I know that the bike does pop occasionally and there is a little bit of surging...but the key difference between me and the guy who says his bike needs the injectors changed is that I don't really give a $hit. At this point, I'm more interested in seeing what my dealer will say if I do bring it up.


Todd

 

I have an 06 WG with 8 degree injectors. I have had absolutely no problems-the bike runs great. I thought about changing them to the 25 degree injectors before my dyno tune and custom map at 1000 miles, but decided against it. I have never regretted that decision.

 

I'm not referring to soul or personality and no, you're not breaking my heart about Santa Claus either. What I'm referring to is the sum of all those tiny differences inherent in ANY mass produced product. No, they are not all the same. They are mass produced and are subject to every discrepency inherent in any mass produced product. I'm sure that much of it is automated but there is still a great human factor involved from the smallest component to the major assemblies. "Within spec" can be a rather wide range. The grand sum of those discrepencies can manifest itself in any way. How the bike runs, how hot it runs, how different moving parts wear, how it shifts, throttle response, compression, blow-by, oil consumption, etc. So some are a little better than others, some are average, some are poorer but acceptable while just a small few have a huge conglomeration of negative factors and that's why we have lemon laws.

So yeah, when they are playing along a fine line to get these bikes EPA compliant and running them lean anyway, any one bike under particular circumstances can behave differently from one that came off the assembly line right behind it under different conditions. If they were all the same, they all would have problems and a recall would be issued. That is simply not the case. The irrefutable truth is that some work and some don't. We don't even really know what the problem is with the 8° injectors. We only know the specs of the two in question. We don't know if there were quality control problems with those injectors or if it's a design or application flaw. The 25° CVO injectors could've just been a quicker, easier, cheaper fix.

 

Does that mean that me and other California riders are going to have to wait for Harley to do a service bulletin to change our bikes from air-cooled to underwater-cooled bikes? And I just got mine out of the shop too...

 

You make a very good point Craig...but the idea of "within spec" being a wide range is really a relative term, and really isn't wide in the grand scheme of things....if it was, it would be very hard to maintain any quality control whatsoever. In this case, that is perhaps a good argument. The fact that the problem itself isn't detrimental to the bike or the rider is evidence of this. I still stand by my point, especially regarding this issue. Some may consider this a major problem, others may not...even if both are experiencing the same exact symptoms. I would imagine that someone who has never had a motorcycle, gets his/her first harley and experiences this...they may see this as something that demands attention. I have owned several bikes, and all of them have had their own quirks...personalities if you will. My last ride...a 2001 Vstar 1100..popped and sputtered like a ****. I learned to live with it. Whether I should've or not is irrelevant. If my new harley is poping and surging, it's nothing compared to my last ride. Therefore, I have a very hard time finding reason to complain.


Todd

 

I agree with what Todd has introduced into this debate. Each of us has a different level of what is acceptable. Craig, I didn't mean to say that because they are mass produced, they will all run exactly the same. What you are referring to is called accumulation of tolerances or accumulation of errors. Quality programs are maintained to keep these accumulations under control. If the end result is that something don't work right they go back and tighten the tolerance in the area under question. Normally you don't introduce a different part design or size.
Also, "work or don't work" is a misunderstood generalization. They all work. As Todd eludes to, some work a little better then others, or each of us is more or less accepting of how they work.
Maybe this is something we could all agree with. I guarrantee you that even if it slight, one of these injectors is better then the other. And I'm betting the 25 is better because that is what they are currently using. Somewhere at HD there is an Engineer who knows the facts. Also at HD is a bean counter who knows what this would cost to fix. If they can get away with only fixing half of them they will probably save a million dollars. Unfortunately for us the bean counter almost always trumps the engineer. Thus the engineer is silenced.
My bike has the 8's. It runs decent but not as good as it could. My dealer is resisting changing them out and I have accepted that for now. However, I will continue to monitor performance during the warranty period and if things deteriorate, i will be more insisting that they change them.
What is sad about this is we pay alot for these bikes, if HD is the company they claim to be then why are they letting bean counters call the shots. I guess I was a little wrong, it is not black or white, it is a perfect gray. Thanks Todd !