ATF in the primary
#71
05-26-2009, 09:10 AM
Other than being the viscosity of a 85w90 gear oil, the formulation of F+ is remarkably similar to ATF as far as additives.
Let's face it: Formula+ is a compromise "all-in-one" oil. Harley was trying to get away from having three different transmission and primary oils for their bikes. They had a tranny oil for the Big Twins. They had a primary oil for the Big Twins. And they had a tranny oil for the Sportsters (where the tranny and primary share a common sump). With Formula+ they were trying to come up with one lubricant that could be used in the tranny and/or primary of every Harley (except, of course, the V-Rod).
As with any compromise lubricant, it may be "adequate" (the very wording on the label of Formula+) for the applications its intended, but it will never be the ideal lubricant for any of them. The ideal transmission lubricant is thick (at least 20 cSt) with at least GL-4 levels of EP and AW additives. But if you put this in the primary, not only is it a little too thick, you've got the sulfur compounds used for EP attacking the copper in the stator. So to compromise, to make a fluid that can be used in both, you drop the EP and AW additives down to ATF levels (thus eliminating sulfur), but you keep the viscosity way up. Now you've got a lubricant that is "adequate" for both uses, but one that is so thick in the primary that it causes clutch drag until its fully warmed up, and in the transmission, you don't have optimum levels of EP and AW additives for gear protection. It's a trade off that is totally unnecessary if you purpose design a specific lubricant for each application.
IMO, the only application where Formula+ is "ideal" is in the Sportster. In a Big Twin, ATF is "ideal" in the primary, but any 10w30 or 15w40 HDEO would be better than Formula+. For the tranny, a fully formulated GL-5 75w140 gear oils is the ideal lubricant.
Now, all that being said, is your tranny going to fail prematurely if you use Formula+ or Syn3 or any other motorcycle 20w50? Of course not. Is your clutch going to crap out from using F+ or Syn3 or 20w50. Nope. But on the flipside of the coin, they are not going to crap out by using lubricants that are more suited to those individual operating environments, and that means ATF in the primary and gear oil in the tranny.
Just my opinions. YMMV.
Let's face it: Formula+ is a compromise "all-in-one" oil. Harley was trying to get away from having three different transmission and primary oils for their bikes. They had a tranny oil for the Big Twins. They had a primary oil for the Big Twins. And they had a tranny oil for the Sportsters (where the tranny and primary share a common sump). With Formula+ they were trying to come up with one lubricant that could be used in the tranny and/or primary of every Harley (except, of course, the V-Rod).
As with any compromise lubricant, it may be "adequate" (the very wording on the label of Formula+) for the applications its intended, but it will never be the ideal lubricant for any of them. The ideal transmission lubricant is thick (at least 20 cSt) with at least GL-4 levels of EP and AW additives. But if you put this in the primary, not only is it a little too thick, you've got the sulfur compounds used for EP attacking the copper in the stator. So to compromise, to make a fluid that can be used in both, you drop the EP and AW additives down to ATF levels (thus eliminating sulfur), but you keep the viscosity way up. Now you've got a lubricant that is "adequate" for both uses, but one that is so thick in the primary that it causes clutch drag until its fully warmed up, and in the transmission, you don't have optimum levels of EP and AW additives for gear protection. It's a trade off that is totally unnecessary if you purpose design a specific lubricant for each application.
IMO, the only application where Formula+ is "ideal" is in the Sportster. In a Big Twin, ATF is "ideal" in the primary, but any 10w30 or 15w40 HDEO would be better than Formula+. For the tranny, a fully formulated GL-5 75w140 gear oils is the ideal lubricant.
Now, all that being said, is your tranny going to fail prematurely if you use Formula+ or Syn3 or any other motorcycle 20w50? Of course not. Is your clutch going to crap out from using F+ or Syn3 or 20w50. Nope. But on the flipside of the coin, they are not going to crap out by using lubricants that are more suited to those individual operating environments, and that means ATF in the primary and gear oil in the tranny.
Just my opinions. YMMV.
#72
05-26-2009, 09:32 AM
According to two reputable (as opposed to flakes) Amsoil dealers I've asked about this, here is the reason: Amsoil's recommendations generally follow those of the manufacturer. Harley specs Formula+ in the primary and tranny, but they also spec Syn3 in both. Since Amsoil does not make an equivalent to Formula+, they spec their 20w50 MCV as the first choice, that way they are covered as far as the OEM recommendation. But they list their gear oils as alternatives for the tranny.
#73
05-26-2009, 09:40 AM
According to two reputable (as opposed to flakes) Amsoil dealers I've asked about this, here is the reason: Amsoil's recommendations generally follow those of the manufacturer. Harley specs Formula+ in the primary and tranny, but they also spec Syn3 in both. Since Amsoil does not make an equivalent to Formula+, they spec their 20w50 MCV as the first choice, that way they are covered as far as the OEM recommendation. But they list their gear oils as alternatives for the tranny.
#75
05-26-2009, 02:26 PM
Well,
I use Mobil 1 for oil because you can find it anywhere in the country if the V-Twin is not on hand ......but I haven't seen any reply using Redline for the other two holes ????
Synthetic Gear Oils
Designed to provide the highest degree of protection and greatest efficiency for your drivetrain. Red Line provides a complete line of drivetrain lubricants which are optimized for differential, transmission, or transaxle use over a wide range of temperatures. Proper selection depends upon the manufacturers' requirements and whether the application is for passenger automotive, commercial, or racing use. Red Line Gear Oils contain polyol ester basestocks to provide excellent lubrication even under extreme conditions of high-loading and high- temperatures--their natural lubricity provide excellent slipperiness which reduces the sliding friction in hypoid gears to reduce wear and temperatures. The synthetic basestocks have a natural multigrade property, so large amounts of unstable thickeners are not required to manufacture our gear oils, which means that Red Line Gear Oils will provide a stable viscosity for even extended periods of use. Red Line also manufactures gear oils which can be used in limited-slip differentials without the use of additional friction modifiers.
V-Twin Primary Case Oil
Red Line’s new V-twin Primary Case Oil is designed specifically for ’84-to-present V-Twin American motorcycle engines, including aftermarket engines of similar designs. Similar to our MTL, this product is for use in the primary chaincase with wet-diaphragm spring clutches.
Designed to operate over a wide temperature range, this Primary Case Oil improves clutch operation while reducing wear and temperature. Where most synthetics are too slippery for clutch operation, this friction-balanced product is balanced to provide less slip, smoother operation, and helps to apply more power in modified engines.
--Select Variation--V-Twin Primary Case Oil - $12.95
and this....................
Synthetic Manual Transmission Lubricants
Red Line Oil's MTL and MT-90 are designed to provide excellent protection and improved shiftability for manual transmissions and transaxles, having cured the problem of hard shifting in thousands of transmissions with shifting troubles. How? They have the appropriate coefficient of friction for most manual transmission synchronizers (many gear oils, engine oils, and ATFs are too slippery for proper synchro engagement). And, the wide viscosity of MTL and MT-90 allow proper shifting over the entire temperature range which the transmission will experience. The synthetic base oils used have a very high viscosity index which provides relatively constant viscosity as temperature changes. MTL is a low 70W at very low temperatures and a high 80W, nearly an 85W, at elevated temperatures, providing adequate viscosity to prevent wear and deaden gear noise. MT-90 is a thicker 75W90 version of MTL. The shear stability and oxidation stability of these products are excellent, thus the physical characteristics of Red Line MTL and MT-90 will change little with use.
MTL
MT-90
75W90 NS
75W140 NS
MTL
This 70W80 GL-4 Gear Oil (SAE 5W30/10W30 engine oil viscosity) is designed for use in manual transmissions and transaxles. Provides excellent protection of gears and synchronizers and its balanced slipperiness provides a perfect coefficient of friction, allowing easier shifting. Popular in many BMW transmissions and in most Honda and Acura transaxle applications.
--Select Variation--MTL 70W80 GL-4 - quart - $11.49MTL 70W80 GL-4 - gallon - $45.95
I use Mobil 1 for oil because you can find it anywhere in the country if the V-Twin is not on hand ......but I haven't seen any reply using Redline for the other two holes ????
Synthetic Gear Oils
Designed to provide the highest degree of protection and greatest efficiency for your drivetrain. Red Line provides a complete line of drivetrain lubricants which are optimized for differential, transmission, or transaxle use over a wide range of temperatures. Proper selection depends upon the manufacturers' requirements and whether the application is for passenger automotive, commercial, or racing use. Red Line Gear Oils contain polyol ester basestocks to provide excellent lubrication even under extreme conditions of high-loading and high- temperatures--their natural lubricity provide excellent slipperiness which reduces the sliding friction in hypoid gears to reduce wear and temperatures. The synthetic basestocks have a natural multigrade property, so large amounts of unstable thickeners are not required to manufacture our gear oils, which means that Red Line Gear Oils will provide a stable viscosity for even extended periods of use. Red Line also manufactures gear oils which can be used in limited-slip differentials without the use of additional friction modifiers.
V-Twin Primary Case Oil
Red Line’s new V-twin Primary Case Oil is designed specifically for ’84-to-present V-Twin American motorcycle engines, including aftermarket engines of similar designs. Similar to our MTL, this product is for use in the primary chaincase with wet-diaphragm spring clutches.
Designed to operate over a wide temperature range, this Primary Case Oil improves clutch operation while reducing wear and temperature. Where most synthetics are too slippery for clutch operation, this friction-balanced product is balanced to provide less slip, smoother operation, and helps to apply more power in modified engines.
--Select Variation--V-Twin Primary Case Oil - $12.95
and this....................
Synthetic Manual Transmission Lubricants
Red Line Oil's MTL and MT-90 are designed to provide excellent protection and improved shiftability for manual transmissions and transaxles, having cured the problem of hard shifting in thousands of transmissions with shifting troubles. How? They have the appropriate coefficient of friction for most manual transmission synchronizers (many gear oils, engine oils, and ATFs are too slippery for proper synchro engagement). And, the wide viscosity of MTL and MT-90 allow proper shifting over the entire temperature range which the transmission will experience. The synthetic base oils used have a very high viscosity index which provides relatively constant viscosity as temperature changes. MTL is a low 70W at very low temperatures and a high 80W, nearly an 85W, at elevated temperatures, providing adequate viscosity to prevent wear and deaden gear noise. MT-90 is a thicker 75W90 version of MTL. The shear stability and oxidation stability of these products are excellent, thus the physical characteristics of Red Line MTL and MT-90 will change little with use.
MTL
MT-90
75W90 NS
75W140 NS
MTL
This 70W80 GL-4 Gear Oil (SAE 5W30/10W30 engine oil viscosity) is designed for use in manual transmissions and transaxles. Provides excellent protection of gears and synchronizers and its balanced slipperiness provides a perfect coefficient of friction, allowing easier shifting. Popular in many BMW transmissions and in most Honda and Acura transaxle applications.
--Select Variation--MTL 70W80 GL-4 - quart - $11.49MTL 70W80 GL-4 - gallon - $45.95
#77
05-26-2009, 03:44 PM
Road Warrior
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