Hi, looking for some advice....I bought some traxxion springs but they seem really short. They are 300mm long. Since this is a custom front fork, I don’t have any stock lengths to compare to.

The question I have is As long as I get my sag right, does spring length matter in the way it will ride?

Here is what I am working with...
2012 switchback
41 mm tubes, 24.5” fxst
2010 roadking lower legs
Ricor intimidators
Traxxion springs .90

Dan at Traxxion said to use longer spacers if the ones supplied are too short to get the right sag.

Any thoughts?

 

Dan makes sense. PVC schedule 80 pipe should work. Just be sure you totally debur it before install.

 

I know that a 300mm, 1.1kg/mm Traxxion spring has a little more than 6" of deflection so a 300mm .90kg/mm will have 6.5" or so...should be fine.


Set your laden SAG (measured difference btween rider on bike feet on floor boards vs. fully extended wheel off ground) at 1.25" - 1.375".


The Intiminators are harsh and originally designed/meant to be used with soft oem springs, also use tamper proof hardware as to be non-adjustable.


Many people don't understand the inertia valve in the Intiminators, it works on rebound damping only and allows the suspension to rebound faster when open...not a big plus on a cruiser. Inertia valve does not effect or work on compression damping.


Race Tech emulators are similar but are adjustable via different spring rate, preload and partially pre-drilled for additional slow speed bleed. Better ride and performance if set-up/adjusted for application. Dan/Traxxion will most likely tell you the same.

 

Thanks for the info on the springs. As for the intimidators, not going to debate which is better, I have modified the intimidators as per fabrik8 thread so I am pretty sure they will do what I want them to ... and yes there are better options but I was able to get the intimidators really cheap ( brand new)....so for me it’s the route I am going.

Just worried about the springs being too short...

 

I don't know the exact deflection of the .90kg/mm spring but it should be at least 6.5" so your fine to about 1.5" preload...so not a problem. Better quality springs use smaller wire gauge and have more deflection than cheaper springs...allowing a shorter lighter spring.


Depending on your weight I'd guess close to 35mm static preload (measured with parts stacked up just prior to installing fork cap) which will be a good 1" actual after cap is installed and top-out spring compresses. Easy to measure if you tape or mark tube before and after installing cap.


Just passing info on the Intiminators as I've had several people message me with complains on another forum, twice it was the previous and current owners of 2 different sets of Intiminators that fabrik8r had modded...all 4 said still too harsh even after mods.

 

04 SE DUECE said "The Intiminators are harsh and originally designed/meant to be used with soft oem springs, also use tamper proof hardware as to be non-adjustable"

That is just wrong.

If you ask RICOR they recommend a straight rate spring, not the stock progressives that come with Harleys. Intiminators were never designed for progressive rate springs.

They are adjustable if you know what you are doing and its pretty simple. You can get a tool and shims from RICOR that makes taking them apart and tuning them easy.

They work in both directions, the wheel coming up direction allows very quick small bump absorption. The frame coming down direction allows smooth easy compression over swells.

I have never tried them on a cruiser like a Switchback but I have them on my Dyna and they are fabulous even with the progressive springs.

RICOR can tune the valving to the weight and way you want to ride.

 

The reason I post very little on this forum is the prevalence of mis-information and the lack of veracity with which it is delivered.


Things may have changed as it's been a few years since I've looked at or talked to Ricor.


Dave(IIRC) at Ricor agreed and had no reservation stating that the Intimidators were designed to, and work well with, soft stock/oem springs, confirming my experience. Also IMO part of the reason they are being modified when used with proper rate fork springs. Common knowledge in the industry that Intiminators are often used in conjunction with stock springs and damper rods, lighter oil is used/required to accomplish speed sensitive damping when stacking an Intiminator on top of a stock fixed orifice damper rod.


Yes Ricor prefers a straight rate spring to progressive and yes a lot of Harleys come with a 2 stage spring.


In the same breath that Dave/Ricor states "you can't dampen for different spring rates" and prefers straight rate springs as opposed to progressive he claims that the Intiminator will also work with a stiffer more appropriate spring rate but works good with soft OEM springs.


At the time I called they were sending out valves 2 ways, 180lb and 280lb rider IIRC which was 3 or 4 shims IIRC again.


Most in suspension industry will tell you that damping will not typically be adjusted much or at all with spring rate changes but that refers to springs that are considered in the appropriate range for total bike/rider weight...not soggy stock springs being used with a fixed orifice damper rod.


I was told by Ricor that the tamper proof hardware is used as they don't want end users to adjust the valve, I was told if I bought a set addition shims could be sent but that it was not common practice. I didn't feel the need to spend a considerable amount of $ and then have to sort the valve (which is a given) as I have a decent handle on RT emulators. If a set was donated I would have done some R&D.


Yes the Intiminator valve controls damping on both compression and rebound. I'm guessing your need to state the obvious was the fact that you misunderstood my statement that the unique inertia valve in the Intiminator only effects rebound damping, compression damping is controlled by a conventional shim stack.


All Intiminators for 650cc and down are sold exclusively through a different vender who has done considerable development on applications and those Intiminators come with conventional hardware. This vendor is not in any way interested in selling or developing the product for the cruiser market.

 

The inertia valve is for compression damping only. You are misinformed... They open when the lower for sees acceleration when hitting a bump. It does close on rebound so it does nothing.

They claim that the rebound valve effects rebound damping but it's really the wrong place to put rebound damping as it can cause cavitation due to lower pressures in the damping tube. Racetech uses a bigger rebound valve so that the valve have no effect on rebound and the upper orifice holes in the damping rod set rebound velocity.

This guy understands how Intiminators work..

https://www.hdforums.com/forum/touri...rk-better.html

 

Your right Bruce! You know from my posts years ago that I understood correctly how the inertia valve works. I watched the same stuff everybody else did back then. I've only talked to Ricor and one of their vendors and was straightened out or rather "misinformed" and told that the inertia valve when "fired" exposes a rebound port in the center shaft of the valve reducing rebound damping prior to the valve closing allowing the suspension to rebound quickly after a high speed compression event....wrong!!!


I called Ricor, talked to John who stated the valve works as I originally understood and that the mix up must have been in reference to their shock valve....


John told me that they really don't want the end user to take the valve apart to change shims and would prefer that the valve be returned to Ricor for adjustment/replacement, reason being possible damage/breakage of valve. He also said that they really encourage the use of stock fork springs and claims to tell 90% of guys that have changed springs to go back to stock springs. I mentioned that my 450lb 916 came with 1.0kg/mm springs and that my 700lb Harley came with a approx. working range rate of .6 -.7kg/mm. His response was that I likely ask a lot more of the Duc. You know better.


I asked about mods done by fabrik8r again and got a similar answer as last time, don't really think they are necessary, recommended or do much.


I haven't read the entire thread you linked to fabrik8r/Intiminators, maybe someday when I'm bored. I do know on the other tech forum were we met I was contacted by the current and previous owners of 2 different sets of Intiminators modded by fabrik8r, all saying that the valves were too harsh...were does that put stock valves?


Last time I taked to Ricor I was under the impression that Harley applications came with 3 or 4 compression shims. This time John says most likely 3 and just a combo change from (2) 12mm & (1) 15mm or (1) 12mm & (2) 15mm. Hopefully they are more compliant than in the past.


FWIW, Greg at Spears racing, is a proponent of the Intiminators. He shared that you run a little lighter fork spring and that the inertia valve works on compression and initial rebound prior to the valve closing.


My impression is still the same. Part of the bonus of installing speed sensitive valves in a fixed orifice damper rod fork is that it allows the use of a more proper fork spring rate for the combined bike/rider weight.


Why not get rid of the tamper-proof hardware and supply with optional shims and tuning guide?

 

Good you figured it out.. Office cronies are prevalent everywhere.. Even Racetech.

While a 0.6-7 spring rate for a bagger is way too soft, I can see where Ricors work better with lighter springs. After all they are 0 preload deflecting shims like any good cartridge damping system. Racetech emulators need a certain velocity (pressure) for the valve to open.

Just read what fabrik8r says in the first 20 messages and that's all you need to know.. He's pretty much doing what you do with the 4 holer racetek trick.. Increasing low speed orifice flow except that the ricor has a speed valve to stop floating under smoother surfaces.

Deflecting shims behave differently than a spring loaded valve. They need less spring so your idea of a perfect spring does not exist. The perfect spring depends on the damping valve type.

Good example cam be seen by looking at the racetech website. Compare spring rates from a cartridge fork to a regular fork. Cartridges now require about 10% lees spring. 7-8 years ago when I installed springs and gold valves in my DX the numbers were the same an the spring chosen was same as stock/emulator forks. Guess what. They were too stiff. The web tools said 0.9kg/mm springs. I still have the work sheet. Well, when I got around to checking travel with a zip tie I was only using about 4 inches of travel from unloaded. The dx forks have about 5 1/4 inches of travel without running into the bottom out cones. Ended up using 0.8 kg /mm and it was much better. Look at what the app on racetech spits out for dx for now for a 180lb rider.

Not sure what I see for tamper proof hardware on the Instigators. I see more of a production cost reduction in machining. They look like they need a 3 pin flat spanner to disassemble. Probably keeps the novices away which is likely a good thing.