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Old 10-29-2020, 09:30 PM
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Default Carb tuning confusion

So during the summer I was tuning my carb and eventually got it so it was good enough and I got tired of fiddling with it and it was like 115f so I really just drove my Tesla more often for that sweet AC.
Now that it's colder out and nice I took it for a ride and I'm now super confused with my current issue.
Ok so cold air is denser air, so if it's cold outside then the bike should run leaner than when it's hot outside. I took the exact same road at the same speed and when I snap the throttle in the am it starts to speed up, when I snap the throttle at noon it pings and I have to let off. Doing about 80ish and RPM's floating between 3500 and 4000.

So riddle me this batman why does the bike run perfectly when it's like 50f outside but when it's 83f it pings? Shouldn't it ping when it's cold since it's lean then? And it should run better when it's hot since it gets more fuel?

It almost seems like it's running rich and it needs a smaller jet, but then why would it ping at like 80f? It sounds like a spray paint can being shaken up so I'm pretty confident it's pinging.

So I got 01 FXDX, 95CI, high comp heads, high comp pistons, 10.5:1 ratio, 44mm SE carb, high flow air cleaner, external breather mod, SE 257 cams, and 48, 235 jets, oh and I'm running 2 steps colder than stock plugs.

My current level of confusion is a whole new level of WTF
 
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Old 10-29-2020, 09:43 PM
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It's not an AFR issue. Timing too advanced for the fuel at the higher ambient & head temps. Back it down 2-degrees at a time until out of the problem.
 
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Old 10-29-2020, 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Naz
It's not an AFR issue. Timing too advanced for the fuel at the higher ambient & head temps. Back it down 2-degrees at a time until out of the problem.
I was at 0° but I just changed it to +2° I'll try and take it for a ride tomorrow afternoon and see if it changes anything
 
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Old 10-30-2020, 03:04 PM
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Are you running Premium or Regular? Run Premium. Bike sat all summer fuel is bad, and full of H2O. Fuel before the government improved it would last 2yr. now 2mo.

Actually air temp shouldn't have much effect if any on CV carb. because the diaphragm should auto adjust for temp just like it does for altitude. Air density is the relationship between temp and altitude. Altitude is barometric pressure, which is also related to temp.

Clear as mud now I bet.
 
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Old 10-30-2020, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Naz
It's not an AFR issue. Timing too advanced for the fuel at the higher ambient & head temps. Back it down 2-degrees at a time until out of the problem.
Beat me to it, back the timing off a hair, try 32. With anything over 10-1 comp with cali crap gas you back it off. Close the gap on the plugs .005" also. My duel plugged shovel with 11-.7-1 comp runs best at 30 btdc on the timing and .025" on the plug gap with 91 oct. pump gas otherwise she pings like crazy.
 

Last edited by TwiZted Biker; 10-30-2020 at 03:29 PM.
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Old 10-30-2020, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Kabear
Are you running Premium or Regular? Run Premium. Bike sat all summer fuel is bad, and full of H2O. Fuel before the government improved it would last 2yr. now 2mo.

Actually air temp shouldn't have much effect if any on CV carb. because the diaphragm should auto adjust for temp just like it does for altitude. Air density is the relationship between temp and altitude. Altitude is barometric pressure, which is also related to temp.

Clear as mud now I bet.
I always run 91 gas, except when i lived in Italy i ran 95 because why not? But yeah i've run a few full tanks through with Chevron 91 and no change to anything

Originally Posted by TwiZted Biker
Beat me to it, back the timing off a hair, try 32. With anything over 10-1 comp with cali crap gas you back it off. Close the gap on the plugs .005" also. My duel plugged shovel with 11-.7-1 comp runs best at 30 btdc on the timing and .025" on the plug gap with 91 oct. pump gas otherwise she pings like crazy.
I have my plugs at .38 so i can shrink it down a little, and you suggest this small of a gap with my current plugs that are 2 steps colder than stock?
Ok so i don't know what my timing IS all i know is i can adjust from -6 to +9 with my handheld tuner thing. i used to always have it at -6 but during the summer i bumped it to 0. I have the SE adjustable ignition module i installed back in like 2008. and the curve select set to the #4 curve

 
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Old 10-30-2020, 04:30 PM
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I suggest you make one change at a time and test for effect, that way you can infer a cause & effect. Making more than one change at a time and you're just guessing at what helps or makes the condition worse.

The condition you described can be fixed by either more octane rating (anti-knock) or less ignition lead. If the pinging is very noticeable I suspect you will see peppering (black specks) on the plug insulators (the internal ceramic that insulates the electrode from the case) -- that's small particles of aluminum from your pistons (a bad thing) so I suggest you get this under control right quick. It is common for a hotter running engine to be more sensitive to ping. Combustion is a chemical process that is sped up by heat. The fuel, air entering the carb, the heads, and the combustion chamber during compression is hotter when the outside temps climb and the fuel will burn faster, therefore, does not need as much ignition lead.

 
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Old 10-30-2020, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Naz
I suggest you make one change at a time and test for effect, that way you can infer a cause & effect. Making more than one change at a time and you're just guessing at what helps or makes the condition worse.

The condition you described can be fixed by either more octane rating (anti-knock) or less ignition lead. If the pinging is very noticeable I suspect you will see peppering (black specks) on the plug insulators (the internal ceramic that insulates the electrode from the case) -- that's small particles of aluminum from your pistons (a bad thing) so I suggest you get this under control right quick. It is common for a hotter running engine to be more sensitive to ping. Combustion is a chemical process that is sped up by heat. The fuel, air entering the carb, the heads, and the combustion chamber during compression is hotter when the outside temps climb and the fuel will burn faster, therefore, does not need as much ignition lead.
I'm tracking the whole one change at a time thing. And as previously mentioned I run 91 gas, and always have.
I also know that when it knocks to instantly let off and as soon as I do it stops, so I'm pretty certain it's not causing any real harm to the cylinder as it only knocks for a split sec every so often. But it obviously needs to be rectified.

I changed the timing went for a ride and on the way out I couldn't get it to ping, even once the engine was well past warmed up 30 mi on the freeway at 85 mph still nothing no matter the throttle position, and I was like awesome that was it.

Then the way home it was pinging at pretty much the same spot it was before. However the ping started when the outside temp went down about 10f I stopped for a burger and gas.
Tomorrow I'm gonna go for a ride in the am, before I roll out I'll add another 2° to the timing and see if it changes anything.
 

Last edited by rasmukri; 10-30-2020 at 08:54 PM.
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Old 10-30-2020, 09:19 PM
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When you say add 2-degrees that sounds like you plan to advance the timing and that would be the wrong direction. Another 2-degrees less advance would be the appropriate next step.
Also, something to consider is that a slight ping may not be audibly noticeable if you have a lot of background noise (exhaust, traffic, wind, etc) so doing a plug check after each run would give you another indication of ping. On my race car everything is so loud I couldn't hear detonation unless it was at the five kiloton level so I have to rely on reading the plugs. You must use clean plugs for each run, clean of peppering that is. Here's what it looks like.


Also, here's some info on timing you may be interested in: https://innovatemotorsports.com/resources/myths.php
 
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Old 10-30-2020, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Naz
When you say add 2-degrees that sounds like you plan to advance the timing and that would be the wrong direction. Another 2-degrees less advance would be the appropriate next step.
Also, something to consider is that a slight ping may not be audibly noticeable if you have a lot of background noise (exhaust, traffic, wind, etc) so doing a plug check after each run would give you another indication of ping. On my race car everything is so loud I couldn't hear detonation unless it was at the five kiloton level so I have to rely on reading the plugs. You must use clean plugs for each run, clean of peppering that is. Here's what it looks like.
I can hear it quite easily even at 85 mph.
Anyway
So if I was at 0 on my little handheld should I be moving it to the +2 mark or the -2 mark? Right now I moved it to the +2 mark.

To me adding timing would be moving it closer to TDC, and removing timing would be retarding it, or moving further from TDC.
 


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