MAJOR change in electrically heated clothing - for good reason
#11
07-05-2024, 03:23 PM
Hope you heal soon.
While the post might alert or save someone pain and suffering it seems like there are a few concerns that can be taken by the user of a heat generating device.From a distance it reads like a user error.
A simple switch, thermostat or a quick disconnect from power source (SAE connector).
It reads like the switch was difficult for you to reach for some reason.
The second, a thermostat was not used by you.
The third was not used (disconnect SAE).
You report being pretty physically insensitive to discomfort and pain, and did not experience anything worrisome.
That statement is a major concern, because if someone is insensitive to discomfort, pain or perhaps has numbness then such a user should probably move away from a heat generating unit.
Heating pads and their use by diabetics would come to mind.
If any pain was felt then a strong pull at an SAE connector should have been able to be initiated.
While the post might alert or save someone pain and suffering it seems like there are a few concerns that can be taken by the user of a heat generating device.From a distance it reads like a user error.
A simple switch, thermostat or a quick disconnect from power source (SAE connector).
It reads like the switch was difficult for you to reach for some reason.
The second, a thermostat was not used by you.
The third was not used (disconnect SAE).
You report being pretty physically insensitive to discomfort and pain, and did not experience anything worrisome.
That statement is a major concern, because if someone is insensitive to discomfort, pain or perhaps has numbness then such a user should probably move away from a heat generating unit.
Heating pads and their use by diabetics would come to mind.
If any pain was felt then a strong pull at an SAE connector should have been able to be initiated.
I posted this thread to prre-warn others. Even the HD motorclothes manager at my dealership had not understood until I explained. She had stopped bringing in the HD garments because too many people were angry about the connector change, and had started bringing in Blackjack brand garments. After she and I spoke, she called me back an hour later and thanked me for bringing this to her attention.
Jim G
#12
07-05-2024, 04:11 PM
Do you have a cited reference from Harley Davidson or some other source about the safety concerns and changing the connector type to prevent mixing of the technologies?
Or is it just hearsay and supposition?
My Warm& Safe has coax connections and has wires in the clothing. I am sure I could mix and match the nano-fiber stuff with my connections.
Or is it just hearsay and supposition?
My Warm& Safe has coax connections and has wires in the clothing. I am sure I could mix and match the nano-fiber stuff with my connections.
Instead, they are PERSISTENTLY telling people in their Q&A answers to use only the new harnesses. (Check it out yourself at the Q&A for the heated jaxcket liner:
https://www.harley-davidson.com/ca/e...r/p/97140-22VM
I put the pieces of info together simply because I am very detail oriented and surprised, and offended, that an electric vest can burn you at all.
Jim G
#13
07-05-2024, 05:02 PM
Grand HDF Member
I don’t know anybody that just plugged their heated gear in without a way to adjust it or turn it off and on. That’s amazing and I guess I’m not surprised you overheated yourself.
The first item I purchased was gloves, the next a variable controller. So my experience is totally different than yours. I purchased my gerbing gloves, heated jacket liner, dual variable controls in 2005. Rarely are my hands and torso at the same temperature. I would say the salesman or your own research, even here on this forum should have given you a heads up to being able to control the heated gear.
when I bought my gloves, I got an off/on switch. Next day I rode back to eagle leather and purchased the heated jacket liner and dual controllers. Absolutely perfect for me and I’ve ridden all day in the low 20F. That said, posting your experience will help others. It’s just a tool, but like all tools, they must be used wisely.. I hope your 2nd degree burn heals rapidly and you find a way to use this gear so that you are comfortable.
I do wear my heated jacket liner over a long sleeve tee shirt. But it’s the variable heat that makes it perfect for me.
The first item I purchased was gloves, the next a variable controller. So my experience is totally different than yours. I purchased my gerbing gloves, heated jacket liner, dual variable controls in 2005. Rarely are my hands and torso at the same temperature. I would say the salesman or your own research, even here on this forum should have given you a heads up to being able to control the heated gear.
when I bought my gloves, I got an off/on switch. Next day I rode back to eagle leather and purchased the heated jacket liner and dual controllers. Absolutely perfect for me and I’ve ridden all day in the low 20F. That said, posting your experience will help others. It’s just a tool, but like all tools, they must be used wisely.. I hope your 2nd degree burn heals rapidly and you find a way to use this gear so that you are comfortable.
I do wear my heated jacket liner over a long sleeve tee shirt. But it’s the variable heat that makes it perfect for me.
#14
07-05-2024, 05:46 PM
Jim G
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Goose_NC (07-08-2024)
#15
07-05-2024, 07:25 PM
Your decades old system is the old Gerbing heated gear system they made for Harley. They were made to use a controller, you just didn't. The controller sat in your pocket, or dangled out on your thigh. I still have one in fact. Yes, it's inefficient, as are all resistance wire heating systems, but they do work well. Hence all the electric toaster ovens and kitchen stoves.
Using one without any controller is on you, with all the inherent risk of using a heating system at maximum power. Far more than risk of a burn (though with old worn gear...) is the risk of simply overheating. With a single contact point burn, I suspect a wire is breaking down there and spiking the heat at that location.
Your new gear will go up to 135 degrees, as per the owners manual for it. So you can still burn yourself with the new gear. None of this heated gear is inherently or perfectly safe.
The new gear with it's carbon fiber heated panels appears to be identical to the vanustas heated gear sold on Amazon. Same technology, same fabric shell, same controller, same heat panels, etc.,
Is the new gear better than the old gear? Probably. Though it still is basically a heated resistance wire, just like the old one was. How good the lifespan will be? I don't know. Nor do I know how it will act as the heat panels break down, though I suspect they will do the normal hot spotting at the fractures.
Having only three temperature settings is rather disappointing. The old Gerber controller was fully variable. But I will confess to generally having mine on high, because it's cold as heck outside. Or off, because I don't need it. Rarely do I fiddle with adjusting the temperature setting, unlike my heated grips where I do twiddle away with the temperature.
Using one without any controller is on you, with all the inherent risk of using a heating system at maximum power. Far more than risk of a burn (though with old worn gear...) is the risk of simply overheating. With a single contact point burn, I suspect a wire is breaking down there and spiking the heat at that location.
Your new gear will go up to 135 degrees, as per the owners manual for it. So you can still burn yourself with the new gear. None of this heated gear is inherently or perfectly safe.
The new gear with it's carbon fiber heated panels appears to be identical to the vanustas heated gear sold on Amazon. Same technology, same fabric shell, same controller, same heat panels, etc.,
Is the new gear better than the old gear? Probably. Though it still is basically a heated resistance wire, just like the old one was. How good the lifespan will be? I don't know. Nor do I know how it will act as the heat panels break down, though I suspect they will do the normal hot spotting at the fractures.
Having only three temperature settings is rather disappointing. The old Gerber controller was fully variable. But I will confess to generally having mine on high, because it's cold as heck outside. Or off, because I don't need it. Rarely do I fiddle with adjusting the temperature setting, unlike my heated grips where I do twiddle away with the temperature.
#17
07-05-2024, 08:17 PM
Road Captain
I'm sure some of you have noticed that HD's offerings of electrically heated clothing have changed, with the newest products (e.g. jacket liners, glove liners, pant liners, and sock liners) being deliberately wired using 2.5mm x 5.5mm COAX connectors versus the previous SAE connectorss, with the 2 different connector types being made deliberately non-joinable,unless you go to aftermarket adaptors.
Now, after extensive research, I understand why. The old equipment was both inefficient and unsafe. In this thread, I'l explain why.
My education on this started with a ridea, taken 3-1/2 weeks ago, with my decade-old HD 12 volt electric vest that used embedded wires to heat (only) limited areas of my front and rear chest, plugged in via SAE connector, to my existing battery charger SAE connector on the bike. That vest had no temperature controller - it was simply either on or off, and the on-off switch was not easy to reach and turn on or off while riding.
During that ride, the temperature started out quite cold, but warmed up during the 3.5 hour ride. When the outdoor temperature got reasonably warm , I was on a stretch of highway with no good place to stop, so I continued to ride without shutting off the vest. It soon got to be uncomfortably warm, but I am pretty physically insensitive to discomfort and pain, and did not experience anything worrisome.
However, when I got home, and was taking the riding gear off, I felt some pain in my back, and used a mirror to take a closer look. I found I had a blister at one point, and a few other areas where my skin was visibly red (like a sunburn). The blister broke while I was replacing the shirt, and my wife was horrified by what she saw. She took a photo of it, and emailed it to our younger son, who is a registered nurse. He said I should go to a clinic right away.
To make a long story short, the doctor said I had a 2nd degree burn there, and he was HOPEFUL that it would not require a skin graft!
Now, 3.5 weeks later, the burn site is STILL healing, my wife has to apply a special cream to protect it against infection and to help the healing, and it needs to be freshly bandaged 3 times per day to prevent the forming scab from being damaged via abrasion when I set with my back against a chair ot sofa cushion. I also cannot let it get wet when bathing. Who knew that an electric vest could harm a person that way!
So, here's the technical background to all this:
It turns out that these vests, without some form of thermostat control added, would hit about 155 degrees F if left on when the ambient temperature is warm enought o not require any artificial heating. Unfortunately, human skin begins to get uncomfortable (for most people) by about 110 to 115 degree F, and will acquire a 2nd degree burn by contact with something in the region of up to 130 degrees. THAT's why I got my burn.
In addition, the old heated vests like mine were pretty inefficient. They had wires in only 3 sections of the left chest, the right chest, and the back. The limited areas, and the wiring technology, meant uneven heating of your skin, and the vests pulled 6 or 7 amps.
The NEW "nanofibre" technology that HD adopted is much more efficient, and WAY safer, although also way more expensive.
It uses "cloth" that has nanofibres of carbon fiber. This cloth is TEN times less resistant to electrical flow than copper! Because of the incredibly low electrical resistance, and the "distributed" versus "wired" approach, garments made from nanofiber have much more even heat distribution, no concentratedheat versus cold areas, can be folded for storage in a saddlebag without breaking wires, can heat a body MUCH more effectively with lower peak temperatures, can easily heat sleeves (unlike vests or wired liners) and way lower current draw (about 3 amps versus 6 or 7 amps). They CAN still get to potentially high enough temperatures to burn skin, BUT they don;t NEED to because of the better heat distribution, and because HD (and other suppliers to skiers and construction workers) sell them with BUILT-IN temperature controllers, they can't GET hot enough to burn skin.
HD obviously does NOT want you to be able to connect your wife's old vest to the same power supply as your new nanofibre jacket liner, because of the obvious danger that could create. I think that's why they changed connectors AND made joining the 2 technologies impossible using their old "splitters". HD in fact EMPHASIZES that the new garments must only be used with the COAX wiring setups, and they provide a new harness to connect to your battery.
If you do not intend to "mix" new and old technologies, you can still buy, on the aftermarket, short 2.5mm x 5.5mm coax cables with an SAE connector at the other end, so that you can still use your SAE battery tender connector already connected to your bike's battery.
That is what I intend to do.
Jim G
Now, after extensive research, I understand why. The old equipment was both inefficient and unsafe. In this thread, I'l explain why.
My education on this started with a ridea, taken 3-1/2 weeks ago, with my decade-old HD 12 volt electric vest that used embedded wires to heat (only) limited areas of my front and rear chest, plugged in via SAE connector, to my existing battery charger SAE connector on the bike. That vest had no temperature controller - it was simply either on or off, and the on-off switch was not easy to reach and turn on or off while riding.
During that ride, the temperature started out quite cold, but warmed up during the 3.5 hour ride. When the outdoor temperature got reasonably warm , I was on a stretch of highway with no good place to stop, so I continued to ride without shutting off the vest. It soon got to be uncomfortably warm, but I am pretty physically insensitive to discomfort and pain, and did not experience anything worrisome.
However, when I got home, and was taking the riding gear off, I felt some pain in my back, and used a mirror to take a closer look. I found I had a blister at one point, and a few other areas where my skin was visibly red (like a sunburn). The blister broke while I was replacing the shirt, and my wife was horrified by what she saw. She took a photo of it, and emailed it to our younger son, who is a registered nurse. He said I should go to a clinic right away.
To make a long story short, the doctor said I had a 2nd degree burn there, and he was HOPEFUL that it would not require a skin graft!
Now, 3.5 weeks later, the burn site is STILL healing, my wife has to apply a special cream to protect it against infection and to help the healing, and it needs to be freshly bandaged 3 times per day to prevent the forming scab from being damaged via abrasion when I set with my back against a chair ot sofa cushion. I also cannot let it get wet when bathing. Who knew that an electric vest could harm a person that way!
So, here's the technical background to all this:
It turns out that these vests, without some form of thermostat control added, would hit about 155 degrees F if left on when the ambient temperature is warm enought o not require any artificial heating. Unfortunately, human skin begins to get uncomfortable (for most people) by about 110 to 115 degree F, and will acquire a 2nd degree burn by contact with something in the region of up to 130 degrees. THAT's why I got my burn.
In addition, the old heated vests like mine were pretty inefficient. They had wires in only 3 sections of the left chest, the right chest, and the back. The limited areas, and the wiring technology, meant uneven heating of your skin, and the vests pulled 6 or 7 amps.
The NEW "nanofibre" technology that HD adopted is much more efficient, and WAY safer, although also way more expensive.
It uses "cloth" that has nanofibres of carbon fiber. This cloth is TEN times less resistant to electrical flow than copper! Because of the incredibly low electrical resistance, and the "distributed" versus "wired" approach, garments made from nanofiber have much more even heat distribution, no concentratedheat versus cold areas, can be folded for storage in a saddlebag without breaking wires, can heat a body MUCH more effectively with lower peak temperatures, can easily heat sleeves (unlike vests or wired liners) and way lower current draw (about 3 amps versus 6 or 7 amps). They CAN still get to potentially high enough temperatures to burn skin, BUT they don;t NEED to because of the better heat distribution, and because HD (and other suppliers to skiers and construction workers) sell them with BUILT-IN temperature controllers, they can't GET hot enough to burn skin.
HD obviously does NOT want you to be able to connect your wife's old vest to the same power supply as your new nanofibre jacket liner, because of the obvious danger that could create. I think that's why they changed connectors AND made joining the 2 technologies impossible using their old "splitters". HD in fact EMPHASIZES that the new garments must only be used with the COAX wiring setups, and they provide a new harness to connect to your battery.
If you do not intend to "mix" new and old technologies, you can still buy, on the aftermarket, short 2.5mm x 5.5mm coax cables with an SAE connector at the other end, so that you can still use your SAE battery tender connector already connected to your bike's battery.
That is what I intend to do.
Jim G
Just curious. I live I. The greater Pittsburgh area and we have had highs in the low nineties for the better part of two weeks.
#18
07-05-2024, 08:28 PM
Today, 3-1/2 weeks later, it was about 11C = 54 F this morning, but peaked at 23C = 78F by mid afternoon.
We have a very dry climate here, and get tmeperatures swings that do a weaker imitation of what desert temperatures do. I knew a man who had served in the Iranian army before he emigrated to The West. He told me that on the first day that he was assigned to a remote gaurd bunker in the Iranian desert, he brought no jacket because it was so hot. That night in the bunker, he was freezing.
Jim G
#19
07-05-2024, 09:22 PM
No. That "Warm & Safe" website does NOT mention nanofibre anywhere. They use thin wires. So does the well-known Black Jack (Canadian) line of heated garments. Not the same thing. And neither of these companies include a temperature controller in the garment. The controller is extra, which means people cna use the garments without the safety of a temperature controller.
Jim G
Jim G
No, they can`t use it without a controller unless they connect it improperly.
I can`t figure out how you burned yourself with a heated garment, unless you used it incorrectly.
Your post is the first ever I have seen on the internet about this looming catastrophe.
If any heated gear is used correctly, it is safe.
Been using Warm&Safe along with Gerbing heated gloves for years.
Without a heat troller, all you have is a short circuit using your heated gear as a resistor.
Have used this heat troller for over ten years, best investment I have made. Mount the remote controller on my handle bars and adjust as needed.
It is dual so one side for my jacket, the other for the gloves.
https://www.warmnsafe.com/collection...l-heat-troller
Without a heat troller, all you have is a short circuit using your heated gear as a resistor.
Have used this heat troller for over ten years, best investment I have made. Mount the remote controller on my handle bars and adjust as needed.
It is dual so one side for my jacket, the other for the gloves.
https://www.warmnsafe.com/collection...l-heat-troller
Last edited by Dan89FLSTC; 07-05-2024 at 09:29 PM.
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CoolBreeze3646 (07-06-2024)
#20
07-06-2024, 08:43 AM
It's a short circuit just like a light bulb is a short circuit, using the bulb as a resistor.
It's inherently limited by the resistance of the garment, or bulb, or any other device one plugs into power without a controller. Light bulbs, simple fans, etc.
So really it's just a circuit, not a short circuit. Regulated only by the device drawing the current. Which is fine and common.
Resistant media tends to heat uniformly along it's area and length. Be this simple wire or mesh or pads.
Where it gets problematic is when there are incomplete fractures. They tend to become hot at the incomplete fracture. Most folk are familiar with this from their cars with a rear window defrosting grid. Dead lines will have a hot spot at the fracture point.
BTW, the use of carbon for resistance isn't new. My ancient sewing machine from the late 1800's uses a crunchy pile of carbon chunks in the pedal box to control motor speed. The more you squish the carbon together with your foot, the lower the resistance and the faster the motor spins. And yes, that means when it's plugged in, the motor is always on, just usually not enough to actually spin the machine until you squish the pedal. And yes, the pedal box stinks and sometimes smokes a bit while you're sewing.
It's inherently limited by the resistance of the garment, or bulb, or any other device one plugs into power without a controller. Light bulbs, simple fans, etc.
So really it's just a circuit, not a short circuit. Regulated only by the device drawing the current. Which is fine and common.
Resistant media tends to heat uniformly along it's area and length. Be this simple wire or mesh or pads.
Where it gets problematic is when there are incomplete fractures. They tend to become hot at the incomplete fracture. Most folk are familiar with this from their cars with a rear window defrosting grid. Dead lines will have a hot spot at the fracture point.
BTW, the use of carbon for resistance isn't new. My ancient sewing machine from the late 1800's uses a crunchy pile of carbon chunks in the pedal box to control motor speed. The more you squish the carbon together with your foot, the lower the resistance and the faster the motor spins. And yes, that means when it's plugged in, the motor is always on, just usually not enough to actually spin the machine until you squish the pedal. And yes, the pedal box stinks and sometimes smokes a bit while you're sewing.