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You have the wrong set up for any low end at all. All your power is over 3800 RPM. Wrong cams, wrong throttle body, too big for low end, and you have a high flow head set up for top end.
Great set up for 120 MPH cruising around 5000 RPM, should run great.
You can dyno all day long and won't be able to have any decent low end, especially trying to use the EPA regulated HD 2010 tuner.
Who in the world came up with this set up expecting any low end at all?
Bigger ain't necessarily better.
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You have the wrong set up for any low end at all. All your power is over 3800 RPM. Wrong cams, wrong throttle body, too big for low end, and you have a high flow head set up for top end.
Great set up for 120 MPH cruising around 5000 RPM, should run great.
Oh really? Thats interesting I have seen this almost identical setup breaking 100ftlbs at 2200rpm and peaking anywhere from 125- 134 MULTIPLE TIMES. I say almost identical because they were all running a 2-1, and they had the benefit of a good tune.
Your right, that head/cam/tb setup is just terrible.
Perhaps you should just stick to plugging Goldwings
Some may disagree, but if you did not bump up your CR, the 408 was the wrong cam to go with. You talk about low end performance, all you have to do is look at your torque curve, it peaks at 4000 rpm and you are not breaking the 100tq until 3000 rpm. You would have been better off with the 7H or 400-6. A good tune may move some the torque curve to the left a bit, but I wouldn't bet on it ever perfoming in the lower rpm like you would expect it too.
The compression was brought to spec, to support that cam correctly, via re-surface and spin-drop, to finalize compression, and correct squish in one fell swoop.
We discussed this at length with Heatwave, and seeing that he is so close to JD's, we highly reccomended that he have Dave take a good look.
Scott
Everybody hold on abit. Long post ahead so feel free to jump ship if you're not interested in the gory details. A few too many assumptions are being made without enough information. First, I spent alot of time with Scott at Hillside as well as Bob at Woods Cams. Both were very confident that the build I put together would pull strong down low as well as through the mid and upper rpm ranges. There are also many dyno examples of this build that are some of the strongest 110 builds posted anywhere, by anybody. The primary difference in my build is the exhaust, the capabilities of the techs doing the tuning and the tuning software.
My initial emphasis on the low end driveability was simply that any build must function well under light load and low rpms or you'll simply have an unrideable bike regardless of the performance it delivers in the mid and upper rpm ranges.
The dealer addressed the low end rideability and unfortunately lost upper performance as a result (this now makes much better sense to me after reviewing the ecu maps). The dealer's techs were always a risk in the tuning but I felt it was worth it to get the ESP coverage. If they turned out to be too inexperienced, I knew I could look to other more experienced tuners and still maintain my dealer relationship and the ESP coverage.
Now the good news...no wait...incredible news. I was obviously disappointed with the 108/109 dyno results even with the light load throttle improvements. While the engine felt good at 108/109, I just knew there was more "under the cover".
Since I had the SuperTuner, cables and training program, I figured I'd take a closer look at what the techs were doing. I wanted to better understand where the techs were running into trouble by looking at the maps myself (the dealer gives me all maps from his tuning) and compare to other map alternatives. I was familiar with the old race tuner as I did tweaking on my FI Fatboy. As it turns out, the dealer's techs just kept adjusting the VE tables without modifying the spark advance tables.
I compared the spark advance tables for the 113 High Output map that Harley provides with the SuperTuner to the spark advances tables on my bike (modified version of the HO 110 with 58mm TB). The spark advance tables on the 113 were quite abit advanced over the 110 and I figured the heads from Hillside were really flowing alot of air. Since the dealer techs weren't modifying the spark and there was no knocking showing in the SuperTuner recordings, I figured I'd try the 113 spark advance tables. (If you'd like more details on these changes drop me a PM). I took things into my own hands and made some very basic changes to the dealer's map.
I was shocked yesterday at how much improvement I was able to make on my own. I don't have any numbers yet to share but I can tell you the performance improvement is more dramatic than I could have ever envisioned or wished for. The bike went from being fast to shockingly quick and throttle responsive. Even from the lowest rpms (2200-2700) I was slammed into the backrest. It actually surprised me the first time I hit the throttle hard.
I had copied the 2010 HO 113 spark advance tables into my bike's map (dealer's tune starting with 2010 110, 58mm tb, bigger injectors map) leaving everything else as it was set by the dealer. Since the bike was running relatively smooth, I figured the spark advance might get me the improved performance I was looking for.
Wow...unbelievable.... I downloaded the new upgraded maps with 113 spark tables and the bike went from fast to a frickin' rocketship. I took the VCI Smarttune and did some recordings. There was no knocking in any of the recordings even using the 113 spark advance tables. I downloaded the Smarttune's recommended changes and went for another "ride and record".
With the Smarttune recommended changes, the throttle was even sharper yet buttery smooth in transition. The bike wanted to jump out from under me when I hit the throttle hard but nice and smooth under normal acceleration. I couldn't be more excited now that I've made these changes. In fact, I couldn't sleep at all last night thinking about other changes to the map. I am 100% confident that the dyno will be substantially improved but I want to do more of my own tuning with Smarttune this week before heading back to the dealer for a dyno run.
I am very confident now that this was the right cam and that the heads from Hillside have still not been fully "utilized". The Map Loads are still peaking and the CID is already set to 120ci. I'll be tuning again this afternoon with the CID at 125 and slowly move the spark advance tables up until either I see knock or map loads that are no longer peaking out.
I have a whole new appreciation for the SuperTuner, SmartTune and the VCI after last evening's experience. I'll report more as I have more data to share but I am now convinced, more than ever, that the build was right and the tuner's were simply too inexperienced. I hope to have the data soon to back up that statement.
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2010 FLHTCUSE5 (SE Ultra) Scarlet Red Pearl/Dark Slate with Flames
Good on you heatwave. You have picked a good builder, who went with a proven performance package for that motor. As stated I have seen the results multiple times when that cam/tb/head combo is setup correctly.
And am positive that Scott has your CR right in the sweetspot for that cam. Hes probably only used that cam a couple hundred times.
Ill bet she is a beast, just wait until you get a real tune in it.
Might want to work on your upper body strength in the meantime
You may want to check to make sure the knock sensor is enabled just to be on the safe side, if you are relying on it that much.
I only keep the knock control disabled during testing runs (usually a couple miles). I always enable the knock control for normal riding, but thanks for the recommendation.
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2010 FLHTCUSE5 (SE Ultra) Scarlet Red Pearl/Dark Slate with Flames
