2007 Tranny problem!

[barkster99]

Ok, I'm the guy that said he wouldn't switch to non-HD fluid for fear of warranty issues. Screw 'em. I've gotta do something about this clatter so I'm ready to try anything. (My dealer is pretty sympathetic to my problems and I'll feel better if I can get his verbal "ok" on this.) iclick -- You said "I changed to 75w90 in the tranny and Castrol GTX 20w50 in the primary at 1k. The 85w140 went in last week at about 4k as an experiment.". What kind of 85w140 did you put in and did you put it in both primary and tranny? I'm also puzzled by Edelmon's comments about syn3 and 1000 miles. I didn't think that HD had ever endorsed syn3 in the tranny or primary; I thought it had always been Formula+. Finally...lots of opinions about fluid brands and weights but, what's not clear in lots of these posts is, are you talking primary or tranny - or both? Now if this damn snow would just go away.

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[disturbedvn]

ORIGINAL: hd2007

If someone had a problem with the 6 speed , why the hell would they buy your fix ? It is under warranty of 2 years , makes no sense.

Let me say that this is not my fix, this fix came from the first company to ever make a six speed for harley davidsons. Baker Drivetrain and they must have done something right for so many companies to offer up products to compete. HMMMM I wonder how H-D got the Idea??? This is a product I offered. And the sense comes from enjoying the ride and not being angured buy the ride.

If you get no results from a dealer, then somepeople would rather just have the problem resolved. Look I'm not trying to sell anything to anyone I was just tring to point out that there is a TRUE FIX out there and you might want to bring it to your dealers attention that if the aftermarket can offer up a fix then the Guy's(HD) who designed this trans should offer you a solution insted of reasons to raise more questions. Thicker fluid may indeed work for you but what about the guy who it doesn't work for the month after his warranty is up. Think about it we all spent alot of money for these bikes and we all seem to have the same issue if thicker fluid was the fix then Harley would have offered up this a Service Bulletin to the dealers and hope the problem away, but they haven't. What works for one may not work for all.

(??? If you bought a new car and everytime you made a left turn it grinds and shakes would you accept it if the dealer said "yeah we hear about that alot, only make right turns and that problem should go away)[sm=noooo.gif]

[jerrya]

As you know...Harley does not make their own oil and said for years not to use synthetic oil. Finally they found someone to make if for them and put their namen on it, SYN 3 and now it's ok. Well using this example, I can see Harley not recommending using heavier oil like 85W 140 until they can get some to make if for them and then they can sell it in their own name. If they recommend now they would be literally throwing away money!

[iclick]

ORIGINAL: barkster99

Ok, I'm the guy that said he wouldn't switch to non-HD fluid for fear of warranty issues. Screw 'em. I've gotta do something about this clatter so I'm ready to try anything. (My dealer is pretty sympathetic to my problems and I'll feel better if I can get his verbal "ok" on this.)

iclick -- You said "I changed to 75w90 in the tranny and Castrol GTX 20w50 in the primary at 1k. The 85w140 went in last week at about 4k as an experiment.". What kind of 85w140 did you put in and did you put it in both primary and tranny?

I'm also puzzled by Edelmon's comments about syn3 and 1000 miles. I didn't think that HD had ever endorsed syn3 in the tranny or primary; I thought it had always been Formula+.

Finally...lots of opinions about fluid brands and weights but, what's not clear in lots of these posts is, are you talking primary or tranny - or both?

Now if this damn snow would just go away.

Barkster, I've used Royal Purple in the engine and tranny for every Harley I've ever owned. The primary isn't an environment that dictates high-tech oil, IMO, so I've always used inexpensive fossil oil. Some use ATF or gear oil, but I don't think anything costing more than $3/qt. is necessary in the primary. All it needs to do is cool the chain and clutch plates, which most any oil can do competently.

At this time I'm running RP 20w50 in the engine, but will change to RP 20w50 3:1 with RP Nitro 50 racing oil (heavy in anti-friction additives) at 5k like I did in my old RK. The tranny has RP 85w140 and the primary Castrol GTX 20w50. HD tech support (Level 2) okayed the 20w50 in the primary as long as it wasn't used in extremely cold weather, as he said it might cause the clutch to act strange. My local dealer okayed the 85w140 gear oil, but I didn't ask for approval on this selection, mentioning it passively in a discussion with their service manager. It wouldn't have mattered, as that's what I'm going to run regardless of their feelings about it, as I know both are perfectly suitable. As for outside temperatures and the 20w50 in the primary, I've ridden in 40° temps and colder this winter and experienced no unusual clutch behavior.

FWIW, the tranny shifts smoother and finding neutral is never a problem like it was sporadically when new and using Formula+. Of course, the bike has loosened up since new and part of the improvement is in the break-in process, I'm sure. But the biggest improvement was the heavy tranny fluid, which knocked all the clattering out of 6th gear and most of it in 5th. Everything is quieter, and I'm happy. FWIW, I used 75w90 in previous Harleys, but they didn't rattle.

[iclick]

ORIGINAL: jerrya

As you know...Harley does not make their own oil and said for years not to use synthetic oil. Finally they found someone to make if for them and put their namen on it, SYN 3 and now it's ok. Well using this example, I can see Harley not recommending using heavier oil like 85W 140 until they can get some to make if for them and then they can sell it in their own name. If they recommend now they would be literally throwing away money!

Good points, but my dealer okayed the use of the RP 85w140 I used, saying they installed Bel-Ray 85w140 in many bikes over the years.

As for synthetic oil, I never actually heard HD say officially not to use it, but their corporate statement was that they couldn't recommend it because they hadn't tested it. Of course, why should they test it, then be forced to recommend it, then lose sales when people used synthetic that HD didn't sell. That would be shooting themselves in the foot, marketing-wise. Now that they sell it, they heartily approve of its use. I have heard the old tales that synthetic makes needle bearings "skate," which is of course preposterous, and actually heard a Harley service manager tell a new owner that his warranty was void if he used synthetic oil. That was about 10 years ago, but he had no right to make that statement, which was not true even back then.

[barkster99]

iclick -- Thanks for the additionalinfo. Hopefully we'll get some riding weather heresoon and I can give 'er a try.

Your choice of Castrol 20w50 in the primary puzzles me alittle. The prevailing opinion on this board (of some anyway) is that the clatter is in the primary, not the tranny. I wouldn't think that 20w50 would add much that Forumula+ didn't have but...as I've said, I've gotta' do something. And, if the combo helped you, I'm not one to arguewith success, even partial success.

Is anyone running an 85w140 gear oil in the primary or would that be a big no-no?

I read somewhere (Bel-Ray website?) that weightdesignations forgear oils were all different than engine oils and that a 80w gear oil was equivalent to a 30w engine oil (or something like that) - so 20w50 might compare pretty close to the 85w140 gear oils??? (make sense?)

Except for the clatter, no tranny orclutch issues to resolve. (Never have heard the famous whine but would happily trade my clatter for it.) Shifts good and easy to hit neutral. 4000 miles on my RK Classic.

(iclick - nice looking bike. Like the black cherry.)

[electaRICK]

this is absolutely fuggin nutz!!!
all I wanna do this spring, is get my bike out , ride and smile....
been studying this forum all winter,, and am more confused than ever....
my bike is still stock because of all this..
so
Redline,Royal Purple or Belray?
PC111 or SERT?
slipons or true duals?
Noise Db's?
compensator,push rods or gears?
sell,trade or keep?
spend big $ =results or waste of $
stage 1 ,tourque smooth down load?
heard good and bad about all???????!!!
like I said,,, all I wanna do is remove cover and enjoy
for a 22,000 $ bike, I have more of a smile turned upside down?!

[billb7984]

Well guys ,I finally got to ride my 07 softail deluxe today ,and I put about 50 miles on it ,I must say that in fifth gear there was a little chatter that I could here ,but not bad at all, as I get older my hearing is getting worse,so maybe that is a blessing,so I guess that it really doesnt bother me,just thought I would let you guys know!! yo Bill B

[rbabos]

Hi everyone: First posting, so I'll try not to piss anyone off. Actually going up to see a new FXSTC tomorrow. I have read all the crap on the problems with the 07 models but feel that most are workable. The ECU remapping solved one that really botherd me. The fith gear whine, by design is normal. If all the gears in the tranny were spur, it would be quieter, like in the old days. With the 6 speed , the clearances between the helicals and spurs are different so the spurs see a bit more load action. The end result is more whine. Totally harmless. Some may whine a bit more than others due to clearance differences. The clatter is not normal in my opinion, and doubt very much the tranny could make this kind of noise and still have bearings in it. From studying the design at some length , my opinion on the cause and fix would be this. I would hazzard to guess that the bikes that clatter will clatter in all gears at a certain rpm. 5th gear may put the primary chain and compensator into resonance more consistantly. The key ingrediant to all this is the chain. Load, engine pulses, heat which changes the length and thins the oil, plus the rubber mounted engine all add up to bringing up a condition where the chain starts whipping. In my view two culprits are at play to cause this action. The compensator may be too weak, and the self adjuster for the primary is no way up to the task. The adjuster , to me is absolutely retarded. Take a shaking chain and try to smooth it out with a spring. DUH. There needs to be a rigid preset for correct chain tension initially so the adjuster cannot be deflected to a looser state, and use the spring as a backup to prolong the adjustment period. In this scenario the clatter will eventually come back in time and the mechanical preset will need to be done. Looked at the picture of the adjuster and came to the conclusion that it is not even close to doing the job that it was designed for. Can't see it lasting a long time .Personally, I prefer the old mechanical shoe. The compensator may or may not be a problem, but it may very well be a bit on the weak side which will compound the primary whip. Like I said, all fixable if some gets off their ass and does it.
Ron

[iclick]

ORIGINAL: barkster99

Your choice of Castrol 20w50 in the primary puzzles me alittle. The prevailing opinion on this board (of some anyway) is that the clatter is in the primary, not the tranny. I wouldn't think that 20w50 would add much that Forumula+ didn't have but...as I've said, I've gotta' do something. And, if the combo helped you, I'm not one to arguewith success, even partial success.

Formula+ is apparently a lackluster 10w30 motor oil with a bit of EP added. Someone had it tested at a lab and came to that conclusion. HD Tech Support told me to try a 20w50 in the primary to cut down the clatter, as it is thicker than Formula+, and it did help some. However, the 85w140 RP gear oil did the most to eliminate the rattle, nixing it completely in 6th gear and making a major improvement in 5th. I'll keep this combo for the near term.

As for the origin of the clatter, I was told by HD the source is the primary, but the noise emanates from the tranny. Apparently, it is the recalibrated springs in the compensator causing slack and the rattle actually coming from the tranny. That's my take on it, anyway, as my clattering is louder on the right side than the left, and the compensator is on the left front.

Is anyone running an 85w140 gear oil in the primary or would that be a big no-no? I read somewhere (Bel-Ray website?) that weightdesignations forgear oils were all different than engine oils and that a 80w gear oil was equivalent to a 30w engine oil (or something like that) - so 20w50 might compare pretty close to the 85w140 gear oils??? (make sense?)

The 85w140 has an equivalent viscosity of a 20w50 motor oil, so it should work okay from a viscosity standpoint, at least in all but very cold weather. HD Tech Support questioned using 20w50 in "cold climates," but said it should be okay in Louisiana. I think gear oil of any kind would be major overkill for the primary, however, as it doesn't need a high-tech oil. A $3 fossil oil like Castrol GTX or ATF (Type F) should be ample to do that job. On my old RK I used 94¢/qt. el-cheapo 10w40 from Walmart and never had a problem.

Except for the clatter, no tranny orclutch issues to resolve. (Never have heard the famous whine but would happily trade my clatter for it.) Shifts good and easy to hit neutral. 4000 miles on my RK Classic.

Try my combo, as it really worked for me on the clatter issue, and the tranny is smooth as can be even in cool weather. Neutral is easy to find, too, although some of that may be due to normal break-in. I'm at about 4200 now. If you can't find Royal Purple, I would think any high-quality 85w140 gear oil (M1, Redline, etc.) would work as well for that problem.