SERT , power commander whatev....
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,108
Likes: 1,964
From: New England
Not wanting to understand the system and why someone went one direction or another means you'll end up with spending a lot of dollars and complaining your bike runs like crap.
You've already gotten some bad and wrong information per the posts above.
Good luck!
Road Master
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 866
Likes: 1
From: FT BRAGG, NC
Well...I'm hoping that last Posting wasn't posted at me. Because after numerous talks with DynoJet and FuelMoto I do think I have it down...at least in laymans terms! But ya know...I'm polish and was born blonde...so I could be wrong!
Now...My 50/50 rule is really more like a 40/60 closed loop to open loop type actions with our EFI. Our ECM's compensate well for limited mods (Aftermarket air cleaners and pipes) in the closed loop mode. But in open loop mode the narrow band sensors really do nothing for us and in fact if I remember right run us downright lean...almost one point past the 14.7 I think we run do to the EPA. Our Bikes run seriously lean and when we put a free flowing system...when we go into open loop mode...it's get's that much leaner...And I do believe we're in open loop the majority of the time.
And on that leaner issue...why do we run leaner when running free flowing systems?? Because If I remember right...we do not have an air sensing systm in our EFI (At least not in my '08 SG). So...there is also no way for the system to richen the A/F Mixture. So a new EFI Black Box is used to help richen the mixture. Only makes sense.
I know there is so much more into it....But ya know...that goes all into theory and stuff. Way to crazy stuff for me. But I know what I know and can talk shop with the area Dyno Tuners and make sense.
You have lots of options! Read up...make a good informed decision. We're still out to help ya! Maybe someone close to you can help ya with this. If not...buy what ya need and have a good Indy help ya with the install. Do your homework!
Ride Safe, Mike
Now...My 50/50 rule is really more like a 40/60 closed loop to open loop type actions with our EFI. Our ECM's compensate well for limited mods (Aftermarket air cleaners and pipes) in the closed loop mode. But in open loop mode the narrow band sensors really do nothing for us and in fact if I remember right run us downright lean...almost one point past the 14.7 I think we run do to the EPA. Our Bikes run seriously lean and when we put a free flowing system...when we go into open loop mode...it's get's that much leaner...And I do believe we're in open loop the majority of the time.
And on that leaner issue...why do we run leaner when running free flowing systems?? Because If I remember right...we do not have an air sensing systm in our EFI (At least not in my '08 SG). So...there is also no way for the system to richen the A/F Mixture. So a new EFI Black Box is used to help richen the mixture. Only makes sense.
I know there is so much more into it....But ya know...that goes all into theory and stuff. Way to crazy stuff for me. But I know what I know and can talk shop with the area Dyno Tuners and make sense.
You have lots of options! Read up...make a good informed decision. We're still out to help ya! Maybe someone close to you can help ya with this. If not...buy what ya need and have a good Indy help ya with the install. Do your homework!
Ride Safe, Mike
I recommend using the tuning product you and your tuner feel most comfortable working with or have a willingness to learn, and choosing a product that you can get support on if needed. I also have a brief explanation on why bikes need to be tuned here http://fuelmotousa.com/harleymain.htm
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Jamie Long / Fuel Moto USA
The USA's Leader V-Twin EFI & Performance www.fuelmotousa.com
Contact 920-423-3309
Email jamie@fuelmotousa.com
Jamie Long / Fuel Moto USA
The USA's Leader V-Twin EFI & Performance www.fuelmotousa.com
Contact 920-423-3309
Email jamie@fuelmotousa.com
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,328
Likes: 15
From: Pacific Northwest
great help from another nc rider! thanks. like ya said, search would only turn up who knows how many threads... which is one reason i dont do searches for stuff on forums... way too many threads to wander through...the little black box from whomever would be the place to start, to 'clean up' the factory setting...then move on from there with the pipes then the ac, or ac then pipes... this **** was simple with my honda!
Here's the answer to the question you should have asked: if you change the a/c and exhaust your motor will run lean to the point of damage thus you need a tuning device to not only bring it back to spec but to take full advantage of those modifications.
And it wasn't "simple" with your Honda, you just didn't know any better.
MODERATOR
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,108
Likes: 1,964
From: New England
...And on that leaner issue...why do we run leaner when running free flowing systems?? Because If I remember right...we do not have an air sensing systm in our EFI (At least not in my '08 SG). So...there is also no way for the system to richen the A/F Mixture. So a new EFI Black Box is used to help richen the mixture. Only makes sense.
I'll give ya that one...not like the old carb days!!!
Thread Starter
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Road Master
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 761
Likes: 9
From: lewisville, nc
p.s. SHE STILLS WANTS THE FREAKIN LEMONADE!
Now that I've read this part, I'd strongly suggest you find a shop to do this work for you.
Not wanting to understand the system and why someone went one direction or another means you'll end up with spending a lot of dollars and complaining your bike runs like crap.
You've already gotten some bad and wrong information per the posts above.
Good luck!
Not wanting to understand the system and why someone went one direction or another means you'll end up with spending a lot of dollars and complaining your bike runs like crap.
You've already gotten some bad and wrong information per the posts above.
Good luck!
and whats the wrong info?
You really should do a search and familiarize yourself with some basics. There's no need for ANY tuner unless you change the air cleaner and exhaust - it'll run fine stock.
Here's the answer to the question you should have asked: if you change the a/c and exhaust your motor will run lean to the point of damage thus you need a tuning device to not only bring it back to spec but to take full advantage of those modifications.
And it wasn't "simple" with your Honda, you just didn't know any better.
Here's the answer to the question you should have asked: if you change the a/c and exhaust your motor will run lean to the point of damage thus you need a tuning device to not only bring it back to spec but to take full advantage of those modifications.
And it wasn't "simple" with your Honda, you just didn't know any better.
really i could have done anyone of the 3 above on the honda and never had needed the other 2 for anyreason but now its starting to seem i'll be getting tuner, ac, and pipes ...or just leave it stock.
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MODERATOR
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,108
Likes: 1,964
From: New England
Most of us are here to help but we can't do all your homework for you.
FWIW, I really hope this doesn't become a complete train wreck for you...
Road Master
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 866
Likes: 1
From: FT BRAGG, NC
Actually, I do believe that we're in closed loop closer to 60% of the time according to Harley. If it's aittle more at times...ok. I checked with 2 sources today, one being a Harley Tech book at a dealer. Our O2 sensors don't read right after we go much leaner than the usual what....14.6 or 14.7...I still can't remember...oh, how well do our O2 sensors work in the open loop? they usually don't...and that's close to 40% of our throttle...maybe alittle less.
Our EFI units do what they can to keep us at the EPAs numbers...and that's were they like to keep it with STOCK air cleaner and exhaust. Once you give it more than they can handle...the EFI/Black Boxes/ whatever you want to call them start to fail in their readings. This is why when you look at a few aftermarket black boxes they either shunt them or use their own o2 sensors.
Our bikes are not meant to handle a more than above average AirFlow that a Big sucker with an un-restrictive exhaust can give us. You'll surpass what the EFI and your O2 sensors can handle in the long run...we'll run lean and then the heat will go up! In the short term it might be cool...in the long run...NO.
We can argue all day and night. Let's just agree to disagree. I deal with this all the time with bikes on Ft Bragg. But you probably do too. And just like every wrench has different ways, I'm sure we do too.
Ride Safe, Mike
Our EFI units do what they can to keep us at the EPAs numbers...and that's were they like to keep it with STOCK air cleaner and exhaust. Once you give it more than they can handle...the EFI/Black Boxes/ whatever you want to call them start to fail in their readings. This is why when you look at a few aftermarket black boxes they either shunt them or use their own o2 sensors.
Our bikes are not meant to handle a more than above average AirFlow that a Big sucker with an un-restrictive exhaust can give us. You'll surpass what the EFI and your O2 sensors can handle in the long run...we'll run lean and then the heat will go up! In the short term it might be cool...in the long run...NO.
We can argue all day and night. Let's just agree to disagree. I deal with this all the time with bikes on Ft Bragg. But you probably do too. And just like every wrench has different ways, I'm sure we do too.
Ride Safe, Mike
Last edited by StreetGlideMedic; Nov 4, 2009 at 09:07 PM.