would you watch superbike racing if H-D was winning?
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Cruiser
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 128
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Dk with say 1800cc it would be competitive for sure ... My point of this thread was If they did allow a displacement advantage to a harley engine that was enough to be competitive , MUCH more people would have interest in AMA road racing Jake
Extreme HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2007
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From: Blairsville GA
It might make a comparable amount of HP (although I'd have to see a 180 horse air-cooled Buell to believe it) but it would never go the distance of a superbike race. The last air-cooled superbikes were the Suzuki's of the mid '90s. They also could make the power, but couldn't hold on to it for the full race.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2007
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From: North of Hell, South of Heaven
I watch it regardless. This is the first year in recent memory where I didn't attend at least one Superbike race (thansk DMG). It's a bonus when HD is running, but not a deal breaker.
One of our local dealers has an old HD VR1000 Superbike hanging around their service department.
One of our local dealers has an old HD VR1000 Superbike hanging around their service department.
Cruiser
Joined: Jun 2008
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My son and I went to daytona this year and when people thought the a BUELL XB12R was winning(it has Harley Motor) the race . The fans where cheering at the top of thier lung each and every lap . For the life of me , i cant understand why the AMA just doesnt allow the Buell XB12R Firebolt to go to whatever displacement it needs to be so it can be competitive ? the stands would be full every race ! My XB12 has an 88ci kit and it has a little less HP than the fastes japanese models and 2x the torque . (160hp 130 torque estimate matched to other with same builds ) Japs 180hp and 70 torque . Let the Harley engine be 2000cc if need be .... It is actually jst an old fashion pushrod anchore . your not being unfair giving it more displacement . the jap engines are the most technologically advanced engines in the world ... Even the japs would love to have the buells competitive . more people watch the more they sell . Jake
Cruiser
Joined: May 2009
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From: NJ
My son and I went to daytona this year and when people thought the a BUELL XB12R was winning(it has Harley Motor) the race . The fans where cheering at the top of thier lung each and every lap . For the life of me , i cant understand why the AMA just doesnt allow the Buell XB12R Firebolt to go to whatever displacement it needs to be so it can be competitive ? the stands would be full every race ! My XB12 has an 88ci kit and it has a little less HP than the fastes japanese models and 2x the torque . (160hp 130 torque estimate matched to other with same builds ) Japs 180hp and 70 torque . Let the Harley engine be 2000cc if need be .... It is actually jst an old fashion pushrod anchore . your not being unfair giving it more displacement . the jap engines are the most technologically advanced engines in the world ... Even the japs would love to have the buells competitive . more people watch the more they sell . Jake
First off, the jap/euro manufacturers don't care about beating buell. To them, buell is a big nobody. All the big manufacturers dont care about U.S. racing. Yes, we're one of their biggest markets, but the U.S. series is a joke to everyone outside of north america. To them, World Superbike, MotoGP, and to a lesser extent, British Superbike are the series to invest in.
Don't believe me? ALL of the manufacturers either drasitcally cut or completely eliminated their factory support efforts in the U.S. Only yamaha has a strong factory presence in the paddock.
They've also cut down on contingency to the club racers, due to the economic crisis. There are people who make a living racing in the club ranks, and what they ride is dependant on who is paying the most. Suzuki used to be the king of contingency (a fast expert could make a few thousand in 1 weekend), but no more.
Second, for the buell to be competitive against superbikes, buell would need a LOT more than a 2000cc motor. Hell, they're is only 1 buell competitive in Daytona Sportbike (dominated by 600cc jap bikes), and even Danny's having a hard time now.
Finally, the AMA has given buell an unfair displacement advantage (and it is unfair, the ducati 1198, with similar specs/displacement is not allowed in the same class that the buell is running), yet attendance isnt that much greater.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2007
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From: North of Hell, South of Heaven
Sorry jake, but you're a little off the mark.
First off, the jap/euro manufacturers don't care about beating buell. To them, buell is a big nobody. All the big manufacturers dont care about U.S. racing. Yes, we're one of their biggest markets, but the U.S. series is a joke to everyone outside of north america. To them, World Superbike, MotoGP, and to a lesser extent, British Superbike are the series to invest in.
Don't believe me? ALL of the manufacturers either drasitcally cut or completely eliminated their factory support efforts in the U.S. Only yamaha has a strong factory presence in the paddock.
They've also cut down on contingency to the club racers, due to the economic crisis. There are people who make a living racing in the club ranks, and what they ride is dependant on who is paying the most. Suzuki used to be the king of contingency (a fast expert could make a few thousand in 1 weekend), but no more.
Second, for the buell to be competitive against superbikes, buell would need a LOT more than a 2000cc motor. Hell, they're is only 1 buell competitive in Daytona Sportbike (dominated by 600cc jap bikes), and even Danny's having a hard time now.
Finally, the AMA has given buell an unfair displacement advantage (and it is unfair, the ducati 1198, with similar specs/displacement is not allowed in the same class that the buell is running), yet attendance isnt that much greater.
First off, the jap/euro manufacturers don't care about beating buell. To them, buell is a big nobody. All the big manufacturers dont care about U.S. racing. Yes, we're one of their biggest markets, but the U.S. series is a joke to everyone outside of north america. To them, World Superbike, MotoGP, and to a lesser extent, British Superbike are the series to invest in.
Don't believe me? ALL of the manufacturers either drasitcally cut or completely eliminated their factory support efforts in the U.S. Only yamaha has a strong factory presence in the paddock.
They've also cut down on contingency to the club racers, due to the economic crisis. There are people who make a living racing in the club ranks, and what they ride is dependant on who is paying the most. Suzuki used to be the king of contingency (a fast expert could make a few thousand in 1 weekend), but no more.
Second, for the buell to be competitive against superbikes, buell would need a LOT more than a 2000cc motor. Hell, they're is only 1 buell competitive in Daytona Sportbike (dominated by 600cc jap bikes), and even Danny's having a hard time now.
Finally, the AMA has given buell an unfair displacement advantage (and it is unfair, the ducati 1198, with similar specs/displacement is not allowed in the same class that the buell is running), yet attendance isnt that much greater.
This is one of their biggest markets? It is their biggest market, that includes all the big euro brands.
The main reason that the manufacturers have drastically cut back is not only due to the poor economy, but the direction that the new head honchos, DMG, are taking the series, which is a NASCAR model for motorcycles. This won't work, because as we all know, motorcycles are not cars. Under the AMA, all the major Japanese manufactures were spending big bucks to race. American Suzuki payroll is (was) bigger than any of the World Superbike teams and close to many of the MotoGP teams. i do agree, that until Ben Spies hit WSB, the euros didn't think we had anything left in the tank.
As far as the Buell having an unfair advantage - only on the big tracks. At a proper road course, they will struggle.
Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: May 2008
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From: 'Noke, VA
Harley does make a liquid-cooled V-twin. I don't see any reason that a superbike couldn't be assembled around it.
Doug Chandler.....That guy was awesome. Best rider I've ever seen.
Doug Chandler.....That guy was awesome. Best rider I've ever seen.
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Tourer
Joined: Feb 2008
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From: Joisy
Not true - The manufacturers want to beat everyone, including Buell.
This is one of their biggest markets? It is their biggest market, that includes all the big euro brands.
As far as the Buell having an unfair advantage - only on the big tracks. At a proper road course, they will struggle.
This is one of their biggest markets? It is their biggest market, that includes all the big euro brands.
As far as the Buell having an unfair advantage - only on the big tracks. At a proper road course, they will struggle.
This size of the market doesn't matter in the least if there are no sponsorship dollars, and DMG messed around enough to chase most manufacturers out of the series.
Its curious that the Daytona 675 and Ducati 848 isn't allowed in the only class that the 1125 has won in this year. I'm not saying the 1125 is a bad bike (I nearly bought one) or that Danny can't ride (he's damned good actually) But that Buell is putting out as much power at 4200rpm then the 600s are at 10,000rpm with the same wieght restrictions. That's bullshit.
Simple fact is that World Super Bike is where the money is in Super Bike racing and DMG has turned the AMA into a sideshow. Personally Ben Spies is lighing the world on fire in WSBK and I'm having a lot of fun watching him.
Edmundson and DMG can go eat one until they can show that they want to return AMA to a proper race series. Rolling starts? Safety Cars? This is MOTORCYCLE racing, not NASCAR, and I don't think they really have a handle on that yet.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,763
Likes: 371
From: North of Hell, South of Heaven
This size of the market doesn't matter in the least if there are no sponsorship dollars, and DMG messed around enough to chase most manufacturers out of the series.
Its curious that the Daytona 675 and Ducati 848 isn't allowed in the only class that the 1125 has won in this year. I'm not saying the 1125 is a bad bike (I nearly bought one) or that Danny can't ride (he's damned good actually) But that Buell is putting out as much power at 4200rpm then the 600s are at 10,000rpm with the same wieght restrictions. That's bullshit.
Simple fact is that World Super Bike is where the money is in Super Bike racing and DMG has turned the AMA into a sideshow. Personally Ben Spies is lighing the world on fire in WSBK and I'm having a lot of fun watching him.
Edmundson and DMG can go eat one until they can show that they want to return AMA to a proper race series. Rolling starts? Safety Cars? This is MOTORCYCLE racing, not NASCAR, and I don't think they really have a handle on that yet.
Its curious that the Daytona 675 and Ducati 848 isn't allowed in the only class that the 1125 has won in this year. I'm not saying the 1125 is a bad bike (I nearly bought one) or that Danny can't ride (he's damned good actually) But that Buell is putting out as much power at 4200rpm then the 600s are at 10,000rpm with the same wieght restrictions. That's bullshit.
Simple fact is that World Super Bike is where the money is in Super Bike racing and DMG has turned the AMA into a sideshow. Personally Ben Spies is lighing the world on fire in WSBK and I'm having a lot of fun watching him.
Edmundson and DMG can go eat one until they can show that they want to return AMA to a proper race series. Rolling starts? Safety Cars? This is MOTORCYCLE racing, not NASCAR, and I don't think they really have a handle on that yet.